Batavia Council votes against extra level of life-saving service for city residents

I can't think of any logical reason to stop our firefighters from having this training. It's useful, it's free and it will benefit both the fireman and the citizen.

"...so it really is a change in focus, because when you have a whole fire department that's geared toward to ALS but yet there is someone else doing that now doesn't make sense, just to keep that mindset and that training level there when that's not their primary job."

If it costs the taxpayers nothing, as Howard reported, and the fire department is willing to take this training on, why not let them? This makes no sense to me at all.

I think it's pretty obvious that the need to control excessive overtime is the reason. The 8-0 vote says it all.

How would training translate to more overtime? This would just provide another level of protection for citizens by firefighters who are already at work. They're not going to be running their own ambulance again. This training would simply allow firefighters on-scene to assist with some of the tougher stuff.

What exactly is their "primary job"? Code enforcement?
Isn't saving the lives of the population they serve (either by saving their home from fire or maintaining life support until help arrives)their primary job?
This is an outrage. The majority of people, who would benefit from the ALS, in our graying community are the elderly.
Hedging their bet that Mercy Flight will be there is hardly an excuse for not approving this training.

Howard, you asksed an open question and I gave you the answer. There isn’t a debate to be had. There is no cost for training, its what you do with that training that will cost money.

The fire union can’t be trusted not to abuse overtime. End of story.

How does a greter knowledge base for firefighters translate to overtime abuses? You're stretching Charlie.

Come on Chris take a look at the OT paid at the FD. The best dairy farm in the county don't produce that much milk. But, on the other hand the city manager should be responsible for controlling OT.

Posted by Charlie Mallow on January 26, 2010 - 11:26am
There is no cost for training, its what you do with that training that will cost money.

The fire union can’t be trusted not to abuse overtime. End of story.

Let me get this right.
1. There is no cost to the training. We agree on that.
2. The problem is the cost of what they do with the training?
Like saving a life? Is that where the cost comes in and is that where the elected officials find offensive in this plan?
3. The fire union can't be trusted not to abuse overtime?
What abuse? Will they run willy nilly throughout the city looking for candidates for ALS just at quitting time?

Guardian Angles don't carry union membership cards. Wake up to the realities of government waste.

I don't understand why they voted against the (Free and Highly Benefical) ALS training. I was a little disapointed, in hopes of positive, refreshing and logical decision making, from our new (*female) council members.( I am hoping they won't get caught up in all the Bucks locking horns). The more knowlege the BFD has the better right? It would "Save Lives".
I am Very Proud Of Our Firemen, EMT's, and BPD. They should be held in the Highest Regard, and should be the Most Important Service, The City Of Batavia should Respect and Preserve. They keep us safe, and we can count on them, always.
This is a double edged sword for me, because I am NOT a fan of unions of any sort. They are unneeded. It is my belief they should be done away with forever.
Was there an Axe to grind, for the settlement the BFD recieved? If So, Thats Wrong.
Its All Fun and Games Till the Ambulance doesn't Show Up, and One of "your" Loved Ones Looses Their Life. No Excuse!!

Charlie is right the public employee unions have been running willy nilly all over the municiplalities for decades. But doesn't the city sign the contracts that allow the overtime abuse hmmmmmm.

Howard, I understand your opinion. It is well documented in your editorial above. I’m also not trying to alter your skewed view of reality. What isn’t a fantasy is how Council voted unanimously against this idea. They care about their families just as you all do but, they also understand the hard facts of life that unions deal taxpayers everyday.

Charlie, I'm not arguing about past overtime abuses, they certainly happened. I just don't see how this issue translates.

Karen, all the women on Council are as smart as they come. They are not going to let anyone make fools out of us. Marianne knows exactly what she is doing, have a little faith in her.

The ambulance service is a private business and from what I have seen it now runs much better and we are safer because of it.

Chris, life lessons have shown me it does and it looks like those lessons have also been learned by everyone on our Council.

OK, then how exactly does it translate? Nebulous statements about 'life-experience' aren't acceptable when you're pre-accusing people of questionable behavior.

"What isn’t a fantasy is how Council voted unanimously against this idea. They care about their families just as you all do but, they also understand the hard facts of life that unions deal taxpayers everyday."

If this is factual, why didn't the council specify that it was the reason for the unanimous vote? If THAT was in the news for everyone to read, maybe the citizens would be more compelled to get involved in council meetings and stop the overtime abuse. The explanation "...used for the function it's best suited for" isn't a good enough reason for me.

Chris, you just said “I'm not arguing about past overtime abuses, they certainly happened.” This prior abuse has drained the city of millions of dollars. Have you seen any proof of reform on the union side?
I’m not looking to call people out. This post was an open question and there were statements of “outrage”. I answered the question. I am not going to go into examples of how city residents lost millions of dollars in excessive overtime. Those problems were fixed and it appears the new Council has learned very valuable lessons from our recent past.

So if we had it chief Hyde's way and they go get the training for free,does that mean they would be answering all Mercy Flights calls also.Doesn't this cost money...How and when would we need the firemen to be on scene.I think council made the right decision. Is there some proof out there that shows that Mercy Flight response time is slow..

Thanks Phil, you're probably right

Charlie, I'm just not seeing the connection between ALS training and overtime abuse. Do you think firefighters are going to be chasing Mercy amblances looking to pad their hours?

I really think the ALS training would just make firefighters (who are already on-scene)that much more useful.

You need to provide a specific example of what a firefighter would do to use his ALS training to abuse overtime, otherwise what you're saying just doesn't make sense.

Charlie,
You attempt to sound wise and experienced is falling on deaf ears.
The statement that ALS training will lead to overtime abuse is cryptic. Without an explanation, it is just the words of a politician trying to convince us that whatever he says has to be right.
Actually, it sounds like someone who is ripe to get back into the fray and run for office again.
Have you picked you next arena yet?

Bea, I guess you could say that if I was blindly defending unions with my hand out looking for a donation. I served my time. I really don't care what you think about my answer, the truth needs no defense.

Chris, you don't see how dispatching firemen for ambulance calls could be abused?

Ask your elected representative he/she voted against it...

Charlie, they're not going to start operating an ambulance again and they certainly wouldn't be dispatched in lieu of Mercy EMS. My take on this is that if they were already at the scene this training could come in handy.

Chris, you act like I would be against the idea of firemen being trained to help people. What you laid out would end up not being the result. The fire truck would end up being dispatched to ambulance calls to help. Your comon sense approach isn’t how government works. You are not looking for the loop holes and ways to work the system. Everyone else is…

Chris,
Question? If they had ALS, would they go each time there is a call in the city for ambulance?

Is this listed as a "call" to show how many calls they answer for future arbitration?

I like the idea of ALS training, but do not want to see us responding as an ambulance service under another name.

And I just get the feeling there will be more overtime. Not sure why, but!

John,

They would do exactly what they're doing now, they'd just have better training.

I guess this is what I don't get, somehow council members linked ALS to the ambulance service and I don't think that it's a proper connection.

Chief Hyde just seemed to be recommending better training for a job the FD already does (BLS), there wasn't a discussion about teaming up with Mercy or taking their calls and ALS training won't make it so.

Where did it say they would be answering calls normally handled by the ambulance service?
I perceived it to mean that, when fighting a fire or otherwise engaged in the normal operations of the fire department, there would be qualified people there to attend to immediate, life threatening emergencies.
John, how would that equate with overtime?

Howard is absolutely right. There, I said it; take a picture.

Willy Nilly FD Boogie Men running around from here to tinbucktwo jackin everyone they can find with an AED to get some extra coin thats what you'll have. Total and complete state of willy nilly.

Again, I support the idea of ALS training, but I would want to know that if in what Bea calls the "normal operations" the ALS is not listed as a seperate "call" for use against the city in arbitration.

Lets take a look at this subject from an Advance Life Support Provider's point of view. Not a City employee just an outsider reading everyones comments to this decision.

1 - Paramedic's provide both basic life support & advance life support. Currently the CBFD has 16 Paramedics (according to Howard's previous posting). CBFD currently responds to ALS level calls along with Mercy EMS and City calls when Mercy EMS is unavailable. Advance life support calls require more invasive procedures than basic life support and dependant on the type of call could require as many hands as possible. The more trained ALS providers on scene and the best response times the better for citizens.

2 - North Tonawanda & City of Tonawanda Fire Departments are career fire departments North of Buffalo. Both districts are similar in size to the City of Batavia. Both fire departments staff Firefighter/Paramedics just like CBFD. Both departments respond to EMS calls within the districts and provide advance life support. Both districts are contracted by a commerical ambulance company similar to Mercy EMS, so they do not have transporting ambulances. Both fire departments respond emergency to ALS calls and the firefighter/paramedics provide immediate care. Fire stations centrally located and ambulances at a nearby hospital just like Batavia. Both Fire Departments are well trained as ALS providers just as CBFD Firefighters are. As a past member of that commerical ambulance company I saw first hand the positive results from the ALS Firefighters. On multiple occasions, I can honestly say, the actions taken by the firefighter/paramedics are the reason the citizens are alive today. Although the firefighters did not transport the patients, they took the necessary steps needed to improve the patient's condition.

3 - Overtime: CBFD already works shorthanded in comparision to other fire departments in the region. It is unsafe but all together another subject. Since the city started requiring all new-hire firefighters to be paramedics since like 1999, most of the department is ALS certified. Firefighters respond to all fire & ALS calls and the minimum staffing level is satisfied which means no additional staffing, which means no OT.

4 - Training: If training firefighters to provide the best for their community costs absolutely no money then what is the problem here? It's like telling a pro football team they can only use a college playbook when a pro system is available for free. I would love to see someone explain that one to Peyton Manning and the Colts fans. Tell a family were sorry we were unable to help a loved one because our city is holding us back from training to provide the best possible care.

5 - Current system: Mercy EMS is working out well and is doing a great job. The Mercy EMS staff is top notch and the sky's the limit for that company.

As a Paramedic, I will tell you call volumes can be unperdictable. If you had 10 ambulances, there is still a chance you could run out of available ambulances, it is just the nature of the beast. If the entire county & hospital is busy then so is Mercy EMS. If no ALS ambulance is available then who will help residents requring an ALS crew? Well if CBFD had ALS certification they could provide defibrillation for cardiac arrests and also relief for chest pain or shortness of breath until an ambulance was to eventually arrive. Alexander, Byron & Oakfield have volunteer BLS ambulances and have a history of coming into the City of Batavia to provide transport when ambulances are unavailable. ALS treatments will take place and care will be provided to residents that need it if CBFD had been granted it's request for ALS. Oh and not to mention it will be free to tax-payers.

6 - Howard put it best when he said "I look at it this way -- if it's not cost to taxpayers (including overtime) and the extra capability saves just one life over the next year or even decade, isn't it worth the risk of whatever invented fears council members and Charlie Mallow might have about the union shooting some angle."

In Closing - All fire departments would like to provide the best service for their community, thats just business. CBFD has requested the highest level of training & highest level of care that a fire department is able to provide at no cost to tax-payers. It is unfourtunate to know that City of Batavia tax-payers had no choice or voice in the decision. A time will come when this decision will be regreted, it's just the nature of the beast.

Posted by Chuck Hammon on January 26, 2010 - 10:33pm
It is unfourtunate to know that City of Batavia tax-payers had no choice or voice in the decision. A time will come when this decision will be regreted, it's just the nature of the beast.

Well put, Chuck.
We are often reminded, on this site, that the residents of Batavia need no voice, since they voiced their opinion at the polls when they elected the sitting council.
Ergo, whatever decisions that are made by the council have to be right regardless of public opinion.
The decision not to allow the fire fighters this training was short sighted. The malice against a city department and those who come to work on a daily basis took center stage and the well being of the residents the council represents was brushed aside.
Playing the "fear of overtime" card to justify the action of the council only raises red flags for future elections. Those who support this decision may well regret it when they have to explain to the public why "fear of overtime" trumps the possibility of saving lives.

Council should and need to read this from Chuck. He has made the point very clear on this. What would happen if there was an accident with a very large number of victims? Things like that does happen in real life. This is where the "extra" ALS people will be needed.

For what the council has voted on tells me that in reality they don't care about the cost of saving even one life that may be in danger. It's too bad that money rules over life.

As I have been following this thread and I got to thinking, this looks like something that the corruption in Albany would do. Is Batavia following Albany's footsteps?

Posted by Chuck Lowder on January 27, 2010 - 10:54am
Council should and need to read this from Chuck. He has made the point very clear on this. What would happen if there was an accident with a very large number of victims? Things like that does happen in real life. This is where the "extra" ALS people will be needed.

For what the council has voted on tells me that in reality they don't care about the cost of saving even one life that may be in danger. It's too bad that money rules over life

Chuck,
You are preaching to the choir. There are many of us who feel the same way you do and realize that an accident can happen where all hands on deck with ALS training is needed.
Notice, the only defense for council's action was the "fear of overtime" or that the fire department would use this as a bargaining chip for the next negotiations with the union.
I guess the hard decision was the fear factor or saving lives. Fear won out, and they are hoping that the public will buy it.

This is what happens when innate fear and hatred of unions trumps responsible decision making.

The political mantra around here for years has been, 'If it has anything to do with a union it must be wrong.' If the folks in charge could get over that type of thinking and address each individual issue as it comes up, we'd be a lot better off as a community.

What I'm hearing here is that the city doesn't want to provide a higher level of service to its citizens (at no cost) because the union is evil and will inevitably screw us.

Well, if it looks like bullcrap and smells like bullcrap, it's probably not a bouquet of roses.

Posted by Charlie Mallow on January 26, 2010 - 2:06pm
Bea, I guess you could say that if I was blindly defending unions with my hand out looking for a donation. I served my time. I really don't care what you think about my answer, the truth needs no defense.

What truth? How does ALS training translate into bilking the public?
You are blindly (as you put it) defending the council and, if you were still on the council, you have voted against the training as well.
Since we are speaking only in the abstract - if you were on the council, how would you explain that ALS is bad for the public. This has nothing to do with the current ambulance service, it has a lot to do with having enough hands trained in the event of a large scale disaster, or if immediate emergency treatment is required. So, how would you go to YOUR constituents and explain that their lives are not as important as sticking it to the union?
Who knows, sometime in the future, you may just have to justify that stand when you run for office again.

OK, enough is enough. All that I am going to say is that "Marianne, how would you like it if one of your elderly parents were in that ambulance that the firefighter was chasing"? Think before you speak!!!

Posted by Donna Jackett on January 27, 2010 - 1:07pm
OK, enough is enough. All that I am going to say is that "Marianne, how would you like it if one of your elderly parents were in that ambulance that the firefighter was chasing"? Think before you speak!!!

You lost me. Which fighterfighters are chasing which ambulances?

Council President Marianne Clattenburg said that council really made its decision last year when the group voted to eliminate city ambulance service. Voting no on Monday was a continuation of that.

"It was a policy decision that supported what we had previously done," Clattenburg said.

Firefighters will be able to fully focus on their primary job, she said, which will still include basic life support services. The job may also include new duties in the future. Council is mulling over a list of neighborhood improvement recommendations left over from last year.

It is thought that perhaps fire personnel can help out with certain recommendations, such as performing property inspections, she said.

Yep, here it is folks. ALS - Bad for firefighters. Building inspections - good!
Give me a break.

Since the budget has not been voted on yet, it will be interesting to see how many on this site attend the public hearing on Feb. 8th.

John,
Offering free training to the fire fighters won't impact the budget.
Besides it is a dead issue (one that you applauded).
No point in me going. By your own standards, I shouldn't have a voice since I no longer pay property taxes.
By Charlie's standards, no one should have voice since their voice was heard on election day and they should trust their elected officials to do right by them.
So, tell me, what exactly is the point of going to a public hearing?

You get to watch the hometown circus Bea.

Bea,
1) I never said it would impact the budget, get your facts right. It is a neutral cost to the budget.

2) I said I supported the ALS. Again, get your facts right.

3) You might finally be right on it being a dead issue (when you look at an 8-0 vote). But with people like you saying "way bother going to a meeting", then Council can say why bother reconsidering, right?

4) The usual, "no point in going". What about the rest of the budget and water rate? Sounds like an excuse for you to stay home and whine.

John, it's double speak.
On one hand you are saying you support the training, but you throw in that "fear of overtime" card and, of course, the "fear of union" card.
Posted by John Roach on January 26, 2010 - 2:41pm
Chris,
Question? If they had ALS, would they go each time there is a call in the city for ambulance?

Is this listed as a "call" to show how many calls they answer for future arbitration?

I like the idea of ALS training, but do not want to see us responding as an ambulance service under another name.

And I just get the feeling there will be more overtime. Not sure why, but!

I like the idea of ALS training, but ,,,,,,(Fear of Overtime)...always the "but". Where in any of that did you see they would be used as an ambulance service?

Posted by John Roach on January 26, 2010 - 3:31pm
Again, I support the idea of ALS training, but I would want to know that if in what Bea calls the "normal operations" the ALS is not listed as a seperate "call" for use against the city in arbitration.

I support the idea of ALS training, but (fear of union)

That "but" puts you on the side of the council decision.

Reconsideration. Do you honestly believe they would reconsider, even when public opinion (according to this poll) feels that the firefighters SHOULD receive the training.
No way! Sounds to me like its a done deal, no further conversation is required.
From a resident point of view, and knowing that a disaster can occur in any community at any time, I would prefer to see the fire fighters prepared. It's that "if one life is saved" thing.
Apparently the council has inside information that tells them that the City of Batavia will never be visited by a disaster that will require qualified people to cope with the situation.
We can only pray that they are right.

Bea,
The questions of overtime and future arbitration are out there. And they are valid. There had to be a reason for an 8-0 vote.

But that has nothing to do with my support of the ALS training since it cost the city nothing at this time.

I think those concerns can be addressed through talks with the union, and that ALS training is a plus for the City.

But your willingness to whine here and finding excuses not tell council face to face, is disturbing. Even if they will not change their mind, why should you just roll over?

John,
I am far from a whiner, I am a realist.
You stated on the Daily News site that petitions to try and save the nursing home were worthless because there was no way to tell which signers were property owners (tax payers).
I remember thinking at the time, "wow, nice political platform - I will only look out for property owners, the rest of you be damned - vote for me.".
It doesn't look like there will be talks with the union to address this training issue. The Chief (who is non union) was the person who brought the training to the attention of council.
Marianne's explanation for their decision had nothing to do with unions or overtime. If that was the real reason why not say it? Her explanation was that they didn't feel they needed to duplicate the smbulance service. No mention of overtime or unions.
As I said before, apparently council (all 8 of them) are confident that we will never be struck by a disaster that will require a number of qualifed people. Based on their astute wisdom, I'll stay home and as a non tax payer, I'll pray that they are right.

.

What this is, is payback for the settlement the fire dept recieved. Did you decide to punish the BFD? ALS training has "Nothing" to do with the decision to nix our local ambulance. This issue is a Totally Seperate. If ALS training was part of your bogus ambulance deal, then why didnt the public know about it?, and why wasnt it implimented last year? I'll tell you what, if council and the city manager want to punish someone for their actions, let it be themselves. They got us into this mess, way before the girls were thrown in the mix.
Marrianne is right, its a "Continuation" alright, of the same bull****, and patterns from last year. They carry out their "vendetta's" against our BFD, on OUR DIME! Whats next are they going to punish the BPD for their settlement too?? I'd like to see that. The people of Batavia Want This, and it should be revoted on, by the people, for the people.
When I registered to vote, it was in hopes of better business coming from council, the city manager working together with them, transparency, and a better tommorrow for Batavia. Why did I even Bother?...

I really cannot sum up the words that describe how stupid this ruling is. There's something every week happening in Batavia that makes me facepalm and shake my head. Idiocy like this is going to drive people out of Batavia.

Let me be more specific. Young people. Local college students and high school graduates. People that are not really tied to Batavia. Who would want to settle down here and even contemplate having a family with this kind of asinine rulings made by the city council?

If it isn't something the city council has done, it's a piss poor ruling a judge has made on one of the court cases involving a crime beyond a traffic violation, or it's something that's happened at College Village, etc. It's always something obnoxiously stupid and it happens consistently. Those who try to do something about it somehow end up in some kind of trouble or situation forcing them to back down.

So yeah, keep it up.

Bea, your right! I do think that starting to complain 28 days after the new council took office is a little too early for buyer’s remorse. I voted for those people and I appreciate the work they are all doing. For those of you who like high taxes and loads of government services, get organized; get motivated, your time will come in two years. If you can get your puppets in office and they do your bidding, you might get a bonus. With your policies you’ll probably drive me and everyone else with a job out of town too. It’s real easy to spend other people’s money, isn’t it? Get started on your liberal wonderland..

PS – excuse my bitterness; previous to my above response to Bea, I finished my tax returns. It appears that my taxes went up even though I am not among the group of richest Americans that earn more than $250,000 a year. It is my fault, I worked harder and earned more money this year than last, bad me.

Posted by Charlie Mallow on January 28, 2010 - 8:19am For those of you who like high taxes and loads of government services,

Fear factor, Charlie. Will the ALS training raise taxes and add to government services?

Posted by Charlie Mallow on January 28, 2010 - 8:19am
If you can get your puppets in office....

Which party, Charlie? The one that helped you get into office or are you speaking to all parties?
Will you feel that you are a puppet when you go to the Republican committee looking for an endorsement for your next run?
You aren't going to run on just one line, are you?

re tax return:
Amazing, but during other administrations my income taxes went up too. I worked hard too. I know the feeling, but the one thing I never did was feel the resentment, you have, for those not as fortunate.
Different strokes, I guess.

Bea,. Why do you keep bringing up this idea that I’m running for office? I was in elected office and chose not to run again, how does that translate into my desire to run for office again? I’m not on a political committee or even a member of a party. Why don’t you tell people on the committee to keep their eye on the ball, raise some money and find some middle of the road candidates that can win an election? You guys just took the beating of your lives during the last election and believe it or not, I don’t want to see that repeated. Moderation in politics is important.