The crops picked by illegal immigrants will still be picked. Torres Farms actually sponsors and hire immigrant workers to come pick their fields. I would just be a matter of other farmers doing the same. Aggressive anti-illegal immigration would help curve the entry of our country by violent illegals. Like I stated before immigrants can enter through legal means just as easy.
I feel bad for you, John now that the cabbage fields near your place have been picked and disked. At least the weather is colder and you won't be opening any windows, hoping for a cool breeze. I'm so glad we always have either corn or hay across the road from our place.
(dripping with sarcasm)
Of course the crops will be picked. Along with passing that law, the other law will be for those on public assistance (regardless of age or infirmity) be out there every day working for their stipend. I wonder if a bus will pull up to the nursing home to pick up the residents who receive assistance and take them out to the farms and muckland? Oh, and make sure that every senior citizen who is on food stamps or receives help with insurance takes a drug test before going out to pick those tomatoes; potatoes; cabbages; onions, etc.
We shouldn't be concerned about the crops, they'll be picked.
When weighing the cost factors in allowing illegal immigrants to continue to pick our fruits and vegetables, don't forget to include the additional costs of incarcerating them when they commit crimes and the value of the two lives snuffed out by illegal immigrants in neighboring Orleans county just in the past year. While I will agree that many illegal immigrants who come here are not murderers, rapists, thieves, or drug users, they are still illegal and are still more of a drain to the economy than a boost.
Immigrants from south of the border are coming from a lawless society where a good deal of the authorities are either running scared of the drug lords or on the take. When you come from a situation where the value of a human life is about equal to the kilo of coke trying to be smuggled, then what makes us expect that there behaviors here will suddenly be that of model citizen. Again, all illegal immigrants are not criminals, but we have an existing path to legal citizenship that over 1 million people use each year. There are no barricades to legal citizenship, and no excuse not to enforce it.
And Bea, we already have a ready a workforce in place to to take over the farm work being done by illegal immigrants, they are called teenagers. Teenage unemployment is at an all time high. I worked on a farm picking rocks and hoeing cabbage as did most of my friends in high school. We did it, so can they.
Jeff I find your comment "Not all illegal aliens are criminals" funnier that crap. Hmmmm the term ILLEGAL comes to mind. They are upstanding citizens I guess (sarcasm). Come on, once an immigrant crosses our borders illegally, they commit a crime. You are right they are a drain more than a boost for this country. In all seriousness we need to control our borders before the southern states become like Mexico.
Bea, I loved how you compare nursing home residents with illegal aliens. I may have used welfare recipients. Of course not all welfare recipients are scamming the system. Wow, welfare there is another drain on taxpayers.
Yeah, Kevin we lucked out too this year. Just Alfa fields this time. Prentice Road residences are the unlucky ones. BTW, how was your Thanksgiving? Were all the kids home?
You are right John, once I looked back at it, the statement doesn't make logical sense. My intent was that all illegal immigrants don't cross the border with criminal intent. Some are actually fleeing unbearable conditions and are looking for a way to provide for their families they can't find in a corrupt, crime-ridden condition. That is why we need to secure our borders so that we can screen and welcome ALL who come here with the purpose of becoming legal citizens.
Should we allow illegals to work at local restaurants so that it cost less to go out and eat.....Those employing illegals should be arrested and fined..
Agree Jeff. That is why, I think we need to tighten our borders though. The people who do not have something to hide and want a better life should be welcomed. I do know that there is large volume of immigrants entering this country illegally who do mean us harm. This is why the President and Supreme Court need to back off the southern states, which are only enforcing pre-established laws. The President needs to stop worrying about minority votes and focus on real issues.
Too many focus on illegals working on farms. They also work in factories and other places, holding down wages and taking jobs that would be available to others.
Immigration control and the use of the term "illegal immigrant" is just another example of the unholy alliance which exists between corporate America and the political elite. It serves to limit competition, dictate to business people who they may or may not hire, use as a whip to hold over the backs of the foreign workers and squeeze out small businesses in favor of big corporations who find it advantageous to set up shop in another country rather than here. What difference does it make where someone is born as long as they live within the laws of OUR country? But hey, the powerful must always have a boogeyman to frighten the masses into submission. This argument has gone on for decades, has anyone noticed anything being different?
My sons did farm work growing up. Yep, city kids going out to work on a farm bringing in hay and other assorted jobs. One son did work on the muck, topping onions and cabbage, for four years and another, my youngest, worked on a dairy farm.
None of them were afraid of hard work.
My sons did farm work growing up. Yep, city kids going out to work on a farm bringing in hay and other assorted jobs. One son did work on the muck, topping onions and cabbage, for four years and another, my youngest, worked on a dairy farm.
None of them were afraid of hard work.
Good for them Bea, that is reflection on you and how you raised them and I applaud you, however for that generation, and especially the up and coming one, that hard work attitude is VERY rare. :(
Dave asks "This argument has gone on for decades, has anyone noticed anything being different?" Yes, I notice a difference...more innocent US citizens die at the hands of illegal immigrants each year, more US citizens are raped by illegal immigrants each year, more US citizens are victims of violent crimes perpetrated by illegal immigrants each year, more jobs are lost to illegal immigrants each year, more illegal immigrants tie up our court systems and taxpayer dollars each year. All these statistics are on the rise so yes, I'm seeing a difference.
"Few stereotypes of immigrants are as enduring, or have been proven so categorically false over literally decades of research, as the notion that immigrants are disproportionately likely to engage in criminal activity�(If anything) immigrants are disproportionately unlikely to be criminal. " or in other words Boogeymen
I'm thinkin' there's just more crime in general as people become more and more isolated from each other. I'd guess that most illegal immigrants try to keep a low profile so as not to attract attention.
I think the most effective answer to the immigration problem: establish Aleut as the national language, lower the minimum wage to 1.65 / hour and outlaw the sale of aftermarket auto details- especially hydraulic suspension systems. ...Interesting that an immigration poll would follow a religious diversity poll. What's the common theme?
Stereotypes have nothing to do with it. Facts do not lie. Increasing numbers of murders, rapes, and violent crimes occur each year at the hands of illegal immigrants. You are right Dave there is more crime in general, and there are more illegal immigrants in general, therefore more crimes committed by illegal immigrants. No boogeyman there, just simple statistics, and a simple solution...if a person does not enter the country illegally, the chance of that person committing a crime in this country are right around 0%.
who are the Fox watchers Terry? I'm quite tired of blame Fox news mantra. Are you willing to go to Kathleen Byham's family (woman murdered by illegal immigrant in Albion Walmart parking lot) and tell them that her daughters killer is just a part of an overblown perspective of Fox news? Who will go to Katherine Sanchez's family (15 yr. Albion girl raped and murdered by and illegal immigrant) and tell them that the girls killer is not part of a fixable problem, but just a false stereotype? How much closer to home does it have to get? These are not just statistics, REAL people are having REAL violent crimes committed against them by REAL illegal immigrants. That's not a stereotype nor is it Fox news spin.
As for who watches Fox news...not me, Fox news has become more antagonistic entertainment than news, just like MSNBC and CNN. But there are facts reported that cannot be denied just because Fox news reports it. Besides, that last time I flipped through the channels and stopped briefly on Fox, there was Mark Sanford as a paid commentator. That won't get me to watch anytime soon, they may well hire Jerry Sandusky to do sports commentary.
C.M. clean my own car? are you kidding me? Jeff; did you read the article I referenced? Facts, plain and simple. As for the 2 Orleans County tragedies, all I can say is there were plenty of sick, stupid senseless murders committed by home-grown scum, maybe not in Orleans or Genesee counties, but nevertheless.
With the high unemployment rate there is no reason for the crops not to be picked. A job is job, people need to learn to take what is available and scale back the lifestyle they are used to. The state can not support them forever. All illegal immigrants should be sent back and if they want to live here they should go through the proper channels after there waiting period for breaking our laws has passed.
The fact matter is, no matter how much people say, there should be legal labor available, when immigration crack downs take place, crops don't get picked.
There are really two choices:
1) Not worry so much about illegal immigration (or, better, make it easier for migrant workers to cross the border);
2) or crack down on illegal immigrants and watch farmers go out of business.
Facts are facts, and it's happened both in Georgia and Alabama, tougher illegal immigration laws have hurt farmers.
Read the NYT piece -- the immigration law has had a ripple effect that is causing international companies to question doing business in Alabama. This law is likely to be a HUGE setback for Alabama's economy.
Dave, the statistics in the article you linked mean absolutely nothing when the real crimes that illegal immigrants committed could have been avoided altogether. Yes there is plenty of "home-grown scum" that commit crimes but how does that excuse the fact that crimes committed by illegal immigrants would not have happened if they weren't here? There is a 100% effective rate against illegal immigrants committing a crime when they don't get across the border in the first place. Quite frankly, the kind of reasoning in the article you link is insulting and demeaning the to the hundreds of thousands of victims of these crimes. Yes hundreds of thousands every year. Whether that is a high percentage or low percentage of immigrants makes no difference when EVERY SINGLE illegal immigrant who committed a crime would equal ONE LESS victim if they had never been here.
Actually Jeff, calling a human being "illegal" is insulting and demeaning. Especially when that human being is looking to earn a small wage for a hard day's work.
Mexicans are criminals.
Gays are immoral.
Who's next in your pure world?
"Mexicans are criminals. Gays are immoral."
TheBatavian has a search feature, so if I said those things, they should be easy to find. If you are making the assertion, back it up. Making up false quotes is unnecessary.
If in your world you can justify crimes being committed that are avoidable with semantics then so be it.
Jeff: maybe if immigration cops and all other law enforcement were released from spending time and money chasing people to check their immigration status, they'd have more time to arrest actual criminals and make it stick so crimes can be prevented. Our immigration laws exist solely to control people. Period
Jeff, you are not seriously disputing your view that homosexuality is an immoral choice? I just can't get over how you seem to look down on others from up high. You can't just dance around and imply things without owning the meaning of what you said, like some politician in NH. (Or worse blaming it on God) Now you are implying Mexican imigrants are criminals. I simply refuse to look at the world from your negetive point of view.
"if a church under the name of Christ performs a gay marriage that church is apostate. Charlie: Homosexuality is a choice, countless numbers have chosen to participate in it, and countless numbers have chosen to walk away from it"...homosexuality is still not condoned....God has nowhere in scripture condoned homosexuality"
I never stated that crime has increased BECAUSE of illegal immigration, I stated that the number of illegal immigrants committing crimes increases each year. That is based on incarceration rates of criminal aliens. It is undeniable. We are not building ICE space at a record rate for kicks and giggles. Victims of crimes committed by illegal immigrants could care less about rates, trends, statistics, etc. The point is illegal immigrant crime is preventable. A person cannot commit a crime who does not belong here and therefore is not here, how hard is that to understand? People can continue to argue semantics based on crime rates in illegals vs. citizens and show that crime rates are lower among illegals or whatever makes the case but interestingly enough, the federal government currently keeps no records on crime statistics of illegal aliens. You can choose to believe articles that skew data to fit an agenda or you can see what is really happening from the inside where the number of incarcerated aliens continues to rise.
The data isn't skewed. The fact is, it should be easier for migrant workers to come here for work. To call them illegal immigrants and the state their are criminals for that reason is to ignore the fact that the laws that make them illegal are unreasonable, counter productive to the interest of the nation and anti-free market.
The argument that crime increases because of illegals implies that there are more murders, rapes, robberies and burglaries because of illegals. Statistically, that isn't true. In fact, the opposite is empirically true.
It's an argument designed to keep "them" on the other side of the border. It clouds the debate and prohibits the ability of our government to arrive at a sane and rational immigration policy.
To call them illegal immigrants and the state their are criminals for that reason is to ignore the fact that the laws that make them illegal are unreasonable,..Howard why is that law unreasonable...Just let them come here and work and live where ever they want...Why have any immigration laws at all...They choose to not enter the country the legal way..Filling the proper paper work,Paying the proper amount of money to file for citizenship..Learning what they have to become citzens..You really think they should just be able to snub there noses at out laws because they don't want to wait there turn..70% of people in your poll don't agree with your view..Jeff is right they commit crimes in this country..If they weren't here there would be less crime ,because the crime they committed would of never happened.,.They don't file income taxes on the wages they earn which is illegal...If i don't pay the taxes i owe to the IRS i go to jail..They drive with no drivers licenses,That another crime they are committing....They use our health care system with out paying....What is that immigration prison in Batavia for..right on Jeff...
Howard, you say "The fact is, it should be easier for migrant workers to come here for work". According to DHS statistics nearly 7 million immigrants have achieved permanent legal citizenship over the last 5 years alone. Over 2.8 million temporary workers were admitted to the US just in 2010. Using the DHS statistics, nearly 4 million new people every year are in our country LEGALLY. How much easier does it have to be?
-13.9 million unemployed Americans (US Dept. of Labor)
-nearly 4 million new immigrants LEGALLY in the US EVERY year. (US Dept. of Homeland Security)
-??? ILLEGAL immigrants entering the US each year (who knows)
And we need to make it easier?
Charlie,
#1 where have I implied that Mexican immigrants are criminals? I said illegal immigrants are criminals, big difference and hard to dispute.
#2 if you read those quotes, and I stand behind them 100%, I clearly imply that homosexuality is immoral, according to scripture. I never said "gays are immoral" because to do so would discount the fact that heterosexuals are immoral, whites are immoral, men are immoral, women are immoral, I AM IMMORAL. The Bible states in Romans 3:23 that "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
You can refuse to look at the world from my point of view all you want, but if you dispute the Bible as accurate then it would never happen anyway so why continue to point out your disagreement?
Is there data on how many non agricultural jobs are taken by illegals? How does that number compare to the number of unemployed legal US residents? Howm many legal US residents would have non agricultural jobs if illegals were not working them?
If you really want to cut down on crime, stop the failed trillion dollar War on Drugs program. As a recovering Republican (6 years clean and Fox New free)I remember having the same fears as you. Its only a 3 minute video,I hope you take the time to watch it.
Thousands of people daily have to show their papers on the way to work. The important word in this link is Interior (meaning 100 mile inside any border). Not as free a country as people think.
Mark asked "Why have any immigration laws at all." I know you're being sarcastic, but I'm not when I say I couldn't agree more. People should be able to come here all they want and work wherever. Employers should be able to hire whoever for whatever wage someone will accept. Most of the foreign workers will gladly pay our SS and income taxes, and send much of the wages home, because they'll still be making a lot more than they could in many other countries. The point is it'll still be home and after making money for years, most will go back to wherever and retire well, and not worry about collecting SS and Medi-whichever. If they want to become citizens while here, fine we'd be lucky to have a lot of these type of hard-working folks, because they want to earn their way, not bitch about everyone else.
Well Charlie, nowhere did I see Jeff state, "Mexicans". Illegal Immigrants applies to all non United States citizens who enter this country without going through proper Customs & Immigration Ports to gain access. Calling a human "Illegal" being demeaning. It is a factual title. They are breaking a U.S. Federal Law so; it is an "ILLEGAL ACT!" Homosexuality is indeed an "IMMORAL ACT!" So, what point are you making? Absolutely NOTHING!
Howard as I stated before, Torres Farms goes down to sponsor and hire immigrant workers. Those farmers down south should do the same. As far as crimes being conduct by illegal immigrants are increasing, that is true. I cannot get in detail but, I have attended several FBI seminars at the University of Buffalo and Hilbert Colleges and there is most certainly an increase. So, let’s stop keeping a blind eye to that fact.
As far as statistics go, we need to consider the source. These people may claim they are experts but, from what I am learning assumptions over facts are used in statistics.
Howard your statement, "The fact is, it should be easier for migrant workers to come here for work. To call them illegal immigrants and the state their are criminals for that reason is to ignore the fact that the laws that make them illegal are unreasonable, counter productive to the interest of the nation and anti-free market." This comment makes absolutely NO SENSE.
A migrant worker refers to an immigrant who works in the United States on a "Work Visa" therefore, that worker is not an immigrant entering this country illegally. So, to state migrant workers are illegal is assinine.
The "United Nations Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families"[1] defines migrant worker as follows:
“ The term "migrant worker" refers to a person who is engaged or has been engaged in a remunerated activity in a State of which he or she is not a national. ”
Well Dave, show me where migrant worker mentions anything about illegally entering the country.... If they are engaged in a remunerated activity in a State of which he or she is not a national. Then more likely they enter that country through the proper channels. I like you to cross some borders in another country illegally and see what happens to you, RIP Dave. YAWBPEDIA states that in an America, "A migrant worker is one that engages in a remunerated activity in a State of which he or she is not a national and enters through proper channels to avoid prosecution of that State's immigration laws.
I have several houses of migrants around me that, GUESS WHAT? You guessed it; they are here through proper channels! Heck, I never have seen anywhere other than Howard's or your comments refer to migrants workers being consider as Illegal Immigrants. There are thousands of migrants workers here that are sponsored and hired legally. Hench why, they are refer to as "MIGRANT WORKERS and not illegal immigrants." My Great Grandpa and Grandma were migrants’ workers who came here on their own dime without any government assistance and established a successful shipping business in Philadelphia, PA.
BTW, thanks for the English lesson "Professor Picky". Proper English also states you spell out "1" (one) when using it in text.
The fact nobody is addressing is that when states crack down on illegal immigrants -- such as Georgia and Alabama -- the crops don't get picked.
That's the issue that needs to be addressed.
Whether that means turning a blind eye to illegal immigrants or making it easier for the people coming here illegally (completely immaterial to those coming here legally, because quite obviously, the numbers coming here legally are not sufficient to do the work, because when all you have are legal migrants, the work doesn't get done) -- something needs to be done.
Unless you just don't give a rip about farmers.
Conservative's positions on immigration always amaze me, because you would think it would be the conservative who would stand up first to protect the livelihood of the American Farmer.
One of the chief reasons I think the country is going to hell is that conservatives stopped being conservative in the past couple of decades. If their social agendas conflicts with free markets, then screw free markets.
Maybe there are people still out here who think the first responsibility is to stand up for the rule of law and not situational ethics. Slavery dragged on far too long because it comprised so large a part of the US economy tied up in a booming cotton industry that the argument of economic disruption won out. And here we are again. We have allowed an institution to linger so long that ethics and the rule of law be damned in favor of the economy. After slavery ended, our economy survived. I'm certain there were disruptions but those disruptions in exchange for ending a barbaric practice define the perseverance of a free and moral nation. I am a proponent of American exceptionalism and truly believe that we would overcome the disruptions caused by bringing our labor force back in to compliance with the rule of law and stop compromising our standards. The setbacks we might suffer would be offset by returning much needed jobs to legal citizens or at least legal temporary workers. In turn, we can restore our country to the example to the rest of the world as a beacon for hard-working ambitious immigrants looking for the opportunity to prosper in freedom, not an open door for those without regard for laws and the expectation of endless handouts.
Definition of MIGRANT
: One that migrates: as a: a person who moves regularly in order to find work especially in harvesting crops b: an animal that shifts from one habitat to another
— Migrant adjective
That could pertain to me if, I go from NY to California to pick seasonal crops.
im•mi•grant
noun \ˈi-mə-grənt\
Definition of IMMIGRANT
: one that immigrates: as a: a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence b: a plant or animal that becomes established in an area where it was previously unknown
Well Howard as I stated and just saw Kathy Hochul last night on the new, mention making it easier for a immigrant to get a work visa would help both getting the "CROPS PICKED" and strengthen our borders. My family was big farmers in this region so; to answer your question do I care about farmers "YES"! Oh yeah Conservatives are the only ones at fault here Howard. Left Wing vs. Right Wing; Good vs. Evil; it is a Liberals way of thinking our problems stems from only one side instead of two. I see the Liberals have been doing an awesome job (screaming with sarcasm) running this country. If Kathy Hochul with other sensible Congressmen can put their differences aside and construct a viable plan. Then this and other issues could be resolved.
My sons and their friends help pick fields for a local farmer in Stafford and they love it and ask to help every year. This farmer is also adding two new crops next year. Maybe it is time we lessen the burden on tax payers and start telling people to help their local farmers and augment their unemployment check until; we can establish a stronger job market in this hell bound country.
BTW, my opinion this country is going to hell because, all sides of government cannot grow up and work out problems. They have money and power already so, why worry about the commoners. Obama is sending this country further down the drain. His lack of leadership, lack of commitment, lack of understanding the issues at hand and his laziness. Such as him sitting back and acknowledge, that he knew the "Super Committee" was going to fail. What the heck is he being paid for?
The only situational ethics going on is one that denies a person a right to work, and a farmer the right to get his crops harvested, because of arbitrary laws that are based on emotion rather than rational analysis.
Not one person has yet to address the issue, the concrete indisputable fact, that citizen labor and legal migrants are insufficient to get crops harvested.
The poll question is about whether you would rather see farmers go bust or not.
The whole idea that situational ethics is going on here is rather ludicrous.
There's two types of laws: Laws based on nature (natural law -- you don't take (covet) something that doesn't belong to you, you don't murder your neighbor); and laws based on some standard society wants to enforce.
Immigration laws are the later. They are not anything that can be found in natural law precepts. They are capricious (constantly changing according to the whims of the political times) and arbitrary.
If anything, they violate natural law because natural law, as Edmund Burke said, dictates that a person has the right to the fruits of his own labor.
Capricious and arbitrary immigration laws deny both the individual and the employer the right to enjoy the fruits of his own labor.
There is nothing conservative about the position most so-called conservatives take on immigration. It's pure-T emotion with a hint of racism.
The one good thing about Newt Gingrich is that he sees through this nonsense.
There is a poll on here asking if we should extend unemployment ,at the same time we are talking about the poor farmer not being able to find workers to pick his crops and as Howard would have it turning a blind eye to illegal immigrants...Is a farm job not a job..how can someone collect unemployment when there is such a great demand for farm labor.Whats wrong will a little prison labor out there picking them crops...Howard do we also turn a blind eye on illegals in the construction trade..Where else should we turn a blind eye to. Howard you act as if these illegal immigrants are just coming here to help us pick our crops...That is so wrong. There are working at all kind of jobs . Construction ,Food service,Lawn Care,Maid services the list goes on and on where do we draw the line..or as you say just turn a blind eye.. ...John has it right MIGRANT worker is different than an illegal immigrant.
The Illegal immigrant is breaking the law and should always be deported.........
Mark, I didn't say turn a blind eye -- that's not the context. The point is, be realistic, and if you're realistic, what's your solution, what are the options? That's the point, that's the context.
High unemployment, but people still won't take many of these farm jobs.
Plenty, seemingly, of legal migrants, yet the crops go unpicked in Alabama and Georgia.
What's your reasonable solution, or is it just "screw the farmer"?
I'm tired of people using "high unemployment" as an excuse on this issue. The facts are in, the evidence is in, unemployed US citizens will NOT, under any circumstances, take these jobs. Bellyache about it all you want, but it's pure fantasy to keep engaging in the notion that the masses of unemployed are suddenly going to show up in the fields. Should we call these unemployed who won't take farm jobs lazy? I don't have a problem with that. Should we expect them to take these jobs as any job is better than no job, you won't get an argument from me. But the fact is, they won't and they don't and meanwhile crops go unharvested and local, state and national economies suffer.
So, what's your solution, or is it just, "to hell with the farmer"?
I would have unemployed take some of those jobs....These farmers also have migrants children out there also picking their crops..Should that be allowed..When we are willing to go out and borrow money from China to extend unemployment benefits to pay people who claim certain jobs are too laborious for them to do,then they shouldn't be allowed any more benefits...I was serious about using prisoners to pick crops..It would be one way to defray the cost of there imprisonment...Most of them are under the age of 30...Why should labor laws be different for those that work on a farm vs.those that work in a factory..The guest worker program is a good start..Let them get work vistas to pick these crops i am for that..Why don't more apply for them ...I do believe alot of these farmers like hiring illegals because they can abuse them ..They don't follow any type of work rules..And if they can't get legal help then i guess the have to go bust..........
I realize this is a day or so late, but I saw this recently on Facebook:
If you cross the border of North Korea illegally, you get 12 years at hard labor. If you cross the Afgan border illegally, you get shot. Two Americans just got 8 years for crossing the Iranian border.
If you cross the United States border illegally, you get a job, a driver's license, food stamps, a place to live, healthcare, housing and child benefits, an education, and a tax free business for 7 years.
So, your point, Richard; we should treat people more like some of the most repressive governments on the planet? ...And chisel the words from the Statue of Liberty plaque:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
Three points concerning your post, Howard.
1. "There's two types of laws: Laws based on nature (natural law -- you don't take (covet) something that doesn't belong to you, you don't murder your neighbor); and laws based on some standard society wants to enforce." Although it is another subject, you just nailed the pro-life argument.
2. "Immigration laws are the later. They are not anything that can be found in natural law precepts. They are capricious (constantly changing according to the whims of the political times) and arbitrary." I have not found any writings of our founding fathers that separate types of laws and none that indicate any are arbitrary and capricious. The ability to govern immigration was established in the Constitution by the Rule of Naturalization (art. 1 sec. 8)
3. I am surprised you would continue to recycle the tired, unfounded liberal talking point that Conservatives and Tea Partiers are racist.
...I'm not sure how the emoticon got in my post, but I can't get it out.
Well, at least it's a cool sunglasses emoticon!
John, I thought that since the UN, an organization of separate countries sought to define "migrant worker" it was appropriate. My point through all of this is that the immigration laws are designed to control. To keep the masses down. The free flow of workers in and out of our borders is not in the interests of the powerful. Period. And I couldn't agree more with: "BTW, my opinion this country is going to hell because, all sides of government cannot grow up and work out problems. They have money and power already so, why worry about the commoners. Obama is sending this country further down the drain. His lack of leadership, lack of commitment, lack of understand the issues at hand and his laziness. Such as him sitting back and acknowledge, that he knew the "Super Committee" was going to fail. What the heck is he being paid for?"
I'm not really Professor Picky (pretty funny) I just thought that referring to Howard's comment as asinine and then spelling it wrong was humorously ironic.
This thread reminds me of a saying I saw somewhere: "Liberals want government to be your Mommy, Conservatives want government to be your Daddy, Libertarians want to be treated like adults" Examples above.
Howard you said about unemployed ....Should we expect them to take these jobs as any job is better than no job, you won't get an argument from me...Then you reply to me ..How? With a gun to their heads?..No not with a gun to there head but to deny them there unemployment check......Thats a reality check....Did all these farmers always need illegal immigrants to pick their crops...Whats wrong with prison labor..Companys use prison labor all the time...From call centers to manufacturing and they are very productive....I saw last year California use prison labor to fight all the fires they had...Don't tell me they are not productive..
Howard, "The only situational ethics going on is one that denies a person a right to work, and a farmer the right to get his crops harvested, because of arbitrary laws that are based on emotion rather than rational analysis."
"According to DHS statistics nearly 7 million immigrants have achieved permanent legal citizenship over the last 5 years alone. Over 2.8 million temporary workers were admitted to the US just in 2010. Using the DHS statistics, nearly 4 million new people every year are in our country LEGALLY."
Now show me where we are denying people to work? Now here is some common sense for you and a few others. Are you currently aware of the situations happening south of our border? Charlie I am not just picking on the southern border because, there are problems on our northern too. Mexican authorities are fighting a battle against drug cartels, gangs, terrorist and Mexican Mafias. They are fighting all of these entities at once because; they all have one common goal. Do you know they are pushing their way north? Hmmm, let’s think for a moment on how they enter this country with the least resistance? Tick tock, tick tock, (Light Bulb Idea)! Here are some choices people. A) Through border checkpoints where they have a greater risk of being discover or B) Crossing the border either above or below ground and with the ability to avoid chokepoints such as the one at our border crossings?
What is your conclusion?
Howard, one last thing how many illegal immigrants do we need to work a farm? We already have 2.8 million but, lets not forget the men and women who work on farms that are U.S. citizen and not to mention the teenagers who have no problem harvesting for cash either. Howard stopping illegal immigration is not about denying farmers to hire, it is about helping to keep the violence out and keeping our citizens safe. How much do illegals cost other farmers when they steal crops and other supplies as they come in?
David, I loved your comments on Liberals and Conservatives. BTW, glad I made you smile. I will remember to proof read when I address you though.
Mark, I love your suggestion on using prison labor. After all they get three (03) hots and a cot, cable tv, free gym membership, etc... For the unemployment issue, you won't have to deny them a unemployment check but, you could informed them that it will be half of what they expect and get them job interview appointments for minimum waged jobs. Ding, Ding, Ding, I still have to work reality check comes to mind and then maybe, they will actually start looking for a full-time job or a couple part-time jobs.
Jeff, that is the problem with liberals, they only care about the outsiders rather than their own. Their mind set is open our borders to allow all tom, dick and harrys in our country. Who cares if, they murder, raped, rob, commit crimes against humanity, etc... They did not do it here and/or they were forced to in their native land.
Conservatives on the other hand focus on only recognizing our rights and forget about everyone else. There is some cases where that should be the case. Roosevelt comments about, one nation and one common language are great ideals to follow.
Many of these immigrants entering our beloved country flee from persecution, humanity hardship, better lifestyle, etc..... So, if you flee to avoid or gain these issues then, why try to convert America into where you left? One common language does not mean to give up your native tongue, it's to help communicate with this country's majority. I fly the AMERICAN FLAG because, I consider myself an AMERICAN. I fly the Irish, Italian and Scottish flags at my office because, that is my HERITAGE.
David, we need to banish the United Nations from our country and put into Switzerland. The UN is one of the biggest abuser and drains on our taxpayers.
John, although we are now going off the subject. But I think the UN serves a purpose. I do NOT think it should be a governing body and I think we contribute way too much money to the UN. The Swiss probably don't want it there either, I'd suggest France.
We should allow more legal workers to come into the country. I find nothing wrong with a guest worker program. But as many have stated if you sneak in you are a criminal.
Well Terry Paine "This post went from embarrassing to logical to embarrassing." What is what? The UN topic was directed to David and only David.
Are things logical, common sense, or just plain opinion? Embarrassing is in the eye of the beholder. I find no one’s comment embarrassing as it is their GOD given right to have their opinion.
Embarrassing is when people become naive and blind to truth. BTW, TRUTH is a three sided gathering of facts.
The crops picked by illegal
The crops picked by illegal immigrants will still be picked. Torres Farms actually sponsors and hire immigrant workers to come pick their fields. I would just be a matter of other farmers doing the same. Aggressive anti-illegal immigration would help curve the entry of our country by violent illegals. Like I stated before immigrants can enter through legal means just as easy.
I feel bad for you, John now
I feel bad for you, John now that the cabbage fields near your place have been picked and disked. At least the weather is colder and you won't be opening any windows, hoping for a cool breeze. I'm so glad we always have either corn or hay across the road from our place.
(dripping with sarcasm) Of
(dripping with sarcasm)
Of course the crops will be picked. Along with passing that law, the other law will be for those on public assistance (regardless of age or infirmity) be out there every day working for their stipend. I wonder if a bus will pull up to the nursing home to pick up the residents who receive assistance and take them out to the farms and muckland? Oh, and make sure that every senior citizen who is on food stamps or receives help with insurance takes a drug test before going out to pick those tomatoes; potatoes; cabbages; onions, etc.
We shouldn't be concerned about the crops, they'll be picked.
When weighing the cost
When weighing the cost factors in allowing illegal immigrants to continue to pick our fruits and vegetables, don't forget to include the additional costs of incarcerating them when they commit crimes and the value of the two lives snuffed out by illegal immigrants in neighboring Orleans county just in the past year. While I will agree that many illegal immigrants who come here are not murderers, rapists, thieves, or drug users, they are still illegal and are still more of a drain to the economy than a boost.
Immigrants from south of the border are coming from a lawless society where a good deal of the authorities are either running scared of the drug lords or on the take. When you come from a situation where the value of a human life is about equal to the kilo of coke trying to be smuggled, then what makes us expect that there behaviors here will suddenly be that of model citizen. Again, all illegal immigrants are not criminals, but we have an existing path to legal citizenship that over 1 million people use each year. There are no barricades to legal citizenship, and no excuse not to enforce it.
And Bea, we already have a ready a workforce in place to to take over the farm work being done by illegal immigrants, they are called teenagers. Teenage unemployment is at an all time high. I worked on a farm picking rocks and hoeing cabbage as did most of my friends in high school. We did it, so can they.
Illegals are not inrested in
Illegals are not inrested in picking crops. They all want to have an anchor baby in the US so they can stay here indefinately.
Jeff I find your comment "Not
Jeff I find your comment "Not all illegal aliens are criminals" funnier that crap. Hmmmm the term ILLEGAL comes to mind. They are upstanding citizens I guess (sarcasm). Come on, once an immigrant crosses our borders illegally, they commit a crime. You are right they are a drain more than a boost for this country. In all seriousness we need to control our borders before the southern states become like Mexico.
Bea, I loved how you compare nursing home residents with illegal aliens. I may have used welfare recipients. Of course not all welfare recipients are scamming the system. Wow, welfare there is another drain on taxpayers.
Yeah, Kevin we lucked out too this year. Just Alfa fields this time. Prentice Road residences are the unlucky ones. BTW, how was your Thanksgiving? Were all the kids home?
You are right John, once I
You are right John, once I looked back at it, the statement doesn't make logical sense. My intent was that all illegal immigrants don't cross the border with criminal intent. Some are actually fleeing unbearable conditions and are looking for a way to provide for their families they can't find in a corrupt, crime-ridden condition. That is why we need to secure our borders so that we can screen and welcome ALL who come here with the purpose of becoming legal citizens.
Should we allow illegals to
Should we allow illegals to work at local restaurants so that it cost less to go out and eat.....Those employing illegals should be arrested and fined..
Agree Jeff. That is why, I
Agree Jeff. That is why, I think we need to tighten our borders though. The people who do not have something to hide and want a better life should be welcomed. I do know that there is large volume of immigrants entering this country illegally who do mean us harm. This is why the President and Supreme Court need to back off the southern states, which are only enforcing pre-established laws. The President needs to stop worrying about minority votes and focus on real issues.
Here's an interesting article
Here's an interesting article concerning teenage kids and working on farms...
http://gasportnewyork.blogspot.com/2011/11/threat-to-farmings-future.ht…
Too many focus on illegals
Too many focus on illegals working on farms. They also work in factories and other places, holding down wages and taking jobs that would be available to others.
Kim, thanks for posting that
Kim, thanks for posting that link. I already went to the govt. website Bob listed and put in my two cents on the legislation.
Immigration control and the
Immigration control and the use of the term "illegal immigrant" is just another example of the unholy alliance which exists between corporate America and the political elite. It serves to limit competition, dictate to business people who they may or may not hire, use as a whip to hold over the backs of the foreign workers and squeeze out small businesses in favor of big corporations who find it advantageous to set up shop in another country rather than here. What difference does it make where someone is born as long as they live within the laws of OUR country? But hey, the powerful must always have a boogeyman to frighten the masses into submission. This argument has gone on for decades, has anyone noticed anything being different?
My sons did farm work growing
My sons did farm work growing up. Yep, city kids going out to work on a farm bringing in hay and other assorted jobs. One son did work on the muck, topping onions and cabbage, for four years and another, my youngest, worked on a dairy farm.
None of them were afraid of hard work.
My sons did farm work growing
My sons did farm work growing up. Yep, city kids going out to work on a farm bringing in hay and other assorted jobs. One son did work on the muck, topping onions and cabbage, for four years and another, my youngest, worked on a dairy farm.
None of them were afraid of hard work.
Good for them Bea, that is reflection on you and how you raised them and I applaud you, however for that generation, and especially the up and coming one, that hard work attitude is VERY rare. :(
Dave asks "This argument has
Dave asks "This argument has gone on for decades, has anyone noticed anything being different?" Yes, I notice a difference...more innocent US citizens die at the hands of illegal immigrants each year, more US citizens are raped by illegal immigrants each year, more US citizens are victims of violent crimes perpetrated by illegal immigrants each year, more jobs are lost to illegal immigrants each year, more illegal immigrants tie up our court systems and taxpayer dollars each year. All these statistics are on the rise so yes, I'm seeing a difference.
"Few stereotypes of
"Few stereotypes of immigrants are as enduring, or have been proven so categorically false over literally decades of research, as the notion that immigrants are disproportionately likely to engage in criminal activity�(If anything) immigrants are disproportionately unlikely to be criminal. " or in other words Boogeymen
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/toc.html
I'm thinkin' there's just more crime in general as people become more and more isolated from each other. I'd guess that most illegal immigrants try to keep a low profile so as not to attract attention.
I think the most effective
I think the most effective answer to the immigration problem: establish Aleut as the national language, lower the minimum wage to 1.65 / hour and outlaw the sale of aftermarket auto details- especially hydraulic suspension systems. ...Interesting that an immigration poll would follow a religious diversity poll. What's the common theme?
Stereotypes have nothing to
Stereotypes have nothing to do with it. Facts do not lie. Increasing numbers of murders, rapes, and violent crimes occur each year at the hands of illegal immigrants. You are right Dave there is more crime in general, and there are more illegal immigrants in general, therefore more crimes committed by illegal immigrants. No boogeyman there, just simple statistics, and a simple solution...if a person does not enter the country illegally, the chance of that person committing a crime in this country are right around 0%.
Easy to tell who the Fox news
Easy to tell who the Fox news watchers are.
who are the Fox watchers
who are the Fox watchers Terry? I'm quite tired of blame Fox news mantra. Are you willing to go to Kathleen Byham's family (woman murdered by illegal immigrant in Albion Walmart parking lot) and tell them that her daughters killer is just a part of an overblown perspective of Fox news? Who will go to Katherine Sanchez's family (15 yr. Albion girl raped and murdered by and illegal immigrant) and tell them that the girls killer is not part of a fixable problem, but just a false stereotype? How much closer to home does it have to get? These are not just statistics, REAL people are having REAL violent crimes committed against them by REAL illegal immigrants. That's not a stereotype nor is it Fox news spin.
As for who watches Fox news...not me, Fox news has become more antagonistic entertainment than news, just like MSNBC and CNN. But there are facts reported that cannot be denied just because Fox news reports it. Besides, that last time I flipped through the channels and stopped briefly on Fox, there was Mark Sanford as a paid commentator. That won't get me to watch anytime soon, they may well hire Jerry Sandusky to do sports commentary.
C.M. clean my own car? are
C.M. clean my own car? are you kidding me? Jeff; did you read the article I referenced? Facts, plain and simple. As for the 2 Orleans County tragedies, all I can say is there were plenty of sick, stupid senseless murders committed by home-grown scum, maybe not in Orleans or Genesee counties, but nevertheless.
With the high unemployment
With the high unemployment rate there is no reason for the crops not to be picked. A job is job, people need to learn to take what is available and scale back the lifestyle they are used to. The state can not support them forever. All illegal immigrants should be sent back and if they want to live here they should go through the proper channels after there waiting period for breaking our laws has passed.
Here's the NYT editorial that
Here's the NYT editorial that inspired the poll
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/opinion/the-price-of-intolerance.html
The fact matter is, no matter how much people say, there should be legal labor available, when immigration crack downs take place, crops don't get picked.
There are really two choices:
1) Not worry so much about illegal immigration (or, better, make it easier for migrant workers to cross the border);
2) or crack down on illegal immigrants and watch farmers go out of business.
Facts are facts, and it's happened both in Georgia and Alabama, tougher illegal immigration laws have hurt farmers.
Read the NYT piece -- the immigration law has had a ripple effect that is causing international companies to question doing business in Alabama. This law is likely to be a HUGE setback for Alabama's economy.
Dave, the statistics in the
Dave, the statistics in the article you linked mean absolutely nothing when the real crimes that illegal immigrants committed could have been avoided altogether. Yes there is plenty of "home-grown scum" that commit crimes but how does that excuse the fact that crimes committed by illegal immigrants would not have happened if they weren't here? There is a 100% effective rate against illegal immigrants committing a crime when they don't get across the border in the first place. Quite frankly, the kind of reasoning in the article you link is insulting and demeaning the to the hundreds of thousands of victims of these crimes. Yes hundreds of thousands every year. Whether that is a high percentage or low percentage of immigrants makes no difference when EVERY SINGLE illegal immigrant who committed a crime would equal ONE LESS victim if they had never been here.
Actually Jeff, calling a
Actually Jeff, calling a human being "illegal" is insulting and demeaning. Especially when that human being is looking to earn a small wage for a hard day's work.
Mexicans are criminals.
Gays are immoral.
Who's next in your pure world?
"Mexicans are criminals. Gays
"Mexicans are criminals. Gays are immoral."
TheBatavian has a search feature, so if I said those things, they should be easy to find. If you are making the assertion, back it up. Making up false quotes is unnecessary.
If in your world you can justify crimes being committed that are avoidable with semantics then so be it.
Jeff: maybe if immigration
Jeff: maybe if immigration cops and all other law enforcement were released from spending time and money chasing people to check their immigration status, they'd have more time to arrest actual criminals and make it stick so crimes can be prevented. Our immigration laws exist solely to control people. Period
Jeff, you keep stating as a
Jeff, you keep stating as a fact that crime has increased because of illegal immigrants, but have yet to cite a source.
Here's a few things I found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#C…
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/22/eveningnews/main6703953.shtml
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/toc.html
What empirical data do you have to support your assertion?
Jeff, you are not seriously
Jeff, you are not seriously disputing your view that homosexuality is an immoral choice? I just can't get over how you seem to look down on others from up high. You can't just dance around and imply things without owning the meaning of what you said, like some politician in NH. (Or worse blaming it on God) Now you are implying Mexican imigrants are criminals. I simply refuse to look at the world from your negetive point of view.
"if a church under the name of Christ performs a gay marriage that church is apostate. Charlie: Homosexuality is a choice, countless numbers have chosen to participate in it, and countless numbers have chosen to walk away from it"...homosexuality is still not condoned....God has nowhere in scripture condoned homosexuality"
http://thebatavian.com/howard-owens/todays-poll-how-concerned-are-you-a…
I never stated that crime has
I never stated that crime has increased BECAUSE of illegal immigration, I stated that the number of illegal immigrants committing crimes increases each year. That is based on incarceration rates of criminal aliens. It is undeniable. We are not building ICE space at a record rate for kicks and giggles. Victims of crimes committed by illegal immigrants could care less about rates, trends, statistics, etc. The point is illegal immigrant crime is preventable. A person cannot commit a crime who does not belong here and therefore is not here, how hard is that to understand? People can continue to argue semantics based on crime rates in illegals vs. citizens and show that crime rates are lower among illegals or whatever makes the case but interestingly enough, the federal government currently keeps no records on crime statistics of illegal aliens. You can choose to believe articles that skew data to fit an agenda or you can see what is really happening from the inside where the number of incarcerated aliens continues to rise.
The data isn't skewed. The
The data isn't skewed. The fact is, it should be easier for migrant workers to come here for work. To call them illegal immigrants and the state their are criminals for that reason is to ignore the fact that the laws that make them illegal are unreasonable, counter productive to the interest of the nation and anti-free market.
The argument that crime increases because of illegals implies that there are more murders, rapes, robberies and burglaries because of illegals. Statistically, that isn't true. In fact, the opposite is empirically true.
It's an argument designed to keep "them" on the other side of the border. It clouds the debate and prohibits the ability of our government to arrive at a sane and rational immigration policy.
To call them illegal
To call them illegal immigrants and the state their are criminals for that reason is to ignore the fact that the laws that make them illegal are unreasonable,..Howard why is that law unreasonable...Just let them come here and work and live where ever they want...Why have any immigration laws at all...They choose to not enter the country the legal way..Filling the proper paper work,Paying the proper amount of money to file for citizenship..Learning what they have to become citzens..You really think they should just be able to snub there noses at out laws because they don't want to wait there turn..70% of people in your poll don't agree with your view..Jeff is right they commit crimes in this country..If they weren't here there would be less crime ,because the crime they committed would of never happened.,.They don't file income taxes on the wages they earn which is illegal...If i don't pay the taxes i owe to the IRS i go to jail..They drive with no drivers licenses,That another crime they are committing....They use our health care system with out paying....What is that immigration prison in Batavia for..right on Jeff...
Howard, you say "The fact is,
Howard, you say "The fact is, it should be easier for migrant workers to come here for work". According to DHS statistics nearly 7 million immigrants have achieved permanent legal citizenship over the last 5 years alone. Over 2.8 million temporary workers were admitted to the US just in 2010. Using the DHS statistics, nearly 4 million new people every year are in our country LEGALLY. How much easier does it have to be?
-13.9 million unemployed Americans (US Dept. of Labor)
-nearly 4 million new immigrants LEGALLY in the US EVERY year. (US Dept. of Homeland Security)
-??? ILLEGAL immigrants entering the US each year (who knows)
And we need to make it easier?
Charlie, #1 where have I
Charlie,
#1 where have I implied that Mexican immigrants are criminals? I said illegal immigrants are criminals, big difference and hard to dispute.
#2 if you read those quotes, and I stand behind them 100%, I clearly imply that homosexuality is immoral, according to scripture. I never said "gays are immoral" because to do so would discount the fact that heterosexuals are immoral, whites are immoral, men are immoral, women are immoral, I AM IMMORAL. The Bible states in Romans 3:23 that "ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
You can refuse to look at the world from my point of view all you want, but if you dispute the Bible as accurate then it would never happen anyway so why continue to point out your disagreement?
Is there data on how many non
Is there data on how many non agricultural jobs are taken by illegals? How does that number compare to the number of unemployed legal US residents? Howm many legal US residents would have non agricultural jobs if illegals were not working them?
Jeff, here's another study. I
Jeff, here's another study. I hope this helps eliminate some of your fears.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/article/2010/mar/01/00022/
Here's what happens when people who own jobs (employers,business owners) aren't able to hire who they want.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/57551.html#ixzz1QQ5IC0cm
If you really want to cut down on crime, stop the failed trillion dollar War on Drugs program. As a recovering Republican (6 years clean and Fox New free)I remember having the same fears as you. Its only a 3 minute video,I hope you take the time to watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7FshBjkS6U
Thousands of people daily
Thousands of people daily have to show their papers on the way to work. The important word in this link is Interior (meaning 100 mile inside any border). Not as free a country as people think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Border_Patrol_Interior_Check…
Mark asked "Why have any
Mark asked "Why have any immigration laws at all." I know you're being sarcastic, but I'm not when I say I couldn't agree more. People should be able to come here all they want and work wherever. Employers should be able to hire whoever for whatever wage someone will accept. Most of the foreign workers will gladly pay our SS and income taxes, and send much of the wages home, because they'll still be making a lot more than they could in many other countries. The point is it'll still be home and after making money for years, most will go back to wherever and retire well, and not worry about collecting SS and Medi-whichever. If they want to become citizens while here, fine we'd be lucky to have a lot of these type of hard-working folks, because they want to earn their way, not bitch about everyone else.
I'm with Terry and Dave on
I'm with Terry and Dave on this.
On a lighter note (or bunch
On a lighter note (or bunch of notes actually):
http://youtu.be/_61hzuGGJX0
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Well Charlie, nowhere did I
Well Charlie, nowhere did I see Jeff state, "Mexicans". Illegal Immigrants applies to all non United States citizens who enter this country without going through proper Customs & Immigration Ports to gain access. Calling a human "Illegal" being demeaning. It is a factual title. They are breaking a U.S. Federal Law so; it is an "ILLEGAL ACT!" Homosexuality is indeed an "IMMORAL ACT!" So, what point are you making? Absolutely NOTHING!
Howard as I stated before, Torres Farms goes down to sponsor and hire immigrant workers. Those farmers down south should do the same. As far as crimes being conduct by illegal immigrants are increasing, that is true. I cannot get in detail but, I have attended several FBI seminars at the University of Buffalo and Hilbert Colleges and there is most certainly an increase. So, let’s stop keeping a blind eye to that fact.
As far as statistics go, we need to consider the source. These people may claim they are experts but, from what I am learning assumptions over facts are used in statistics.
Howard your statement, "The
Howard your statement, "The fact is, it should be easier for migrant workers to come here for work. To call them illegal immigrants and the state their are criminals for that reason is to ignore the fact that the laws that make them illegal are unreasonable, counter productive to the interest of the nation and anti-free market." This comment makes absolutely NO SENSE.
A migrant worker refers to an immigrant who works in the United States on a "Work Visa" therefore, that worker is not an immigrant entering this country illegally. So, to state migrant workers are illegal is assinine.
Uh John according to
Uh John according to wikipedia:
The "United Nations Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families"[1] defines migrant worker as follows:
“ The term "migrant worker" refers to a person who is engaged or has been engaged in a remunerated activity in a State of which he or she is not a national. ”
Says nothing about legal or immigration status.
Asinine has only 1 s
Well Dave, show me where
Well Dave, show me where migrant worker mentions anything about illegally entering the country.... If they are engaged in a remunerated activity in a State of which he or she is not a national. Then more likely they enter that country through the proper channels. I like you to cross some borders in another country illegally and see what happens to you, RIP Dave. YAWBPEDIA states that in an America, "A migrant worker is one that engages in a remunerated activity in a State of which he or she is not a national and enters through proper channels to avoid prosecution of that State's immigration laws.
I have several houses of migrants around me that, GUESS WHAT? You guessed it; they are here through proper channels! Heck, I never have seen anywhere other than Howard's or your comments refer to migrants workers being consider as Illegal Immigrants. There are thousands of migrants workers here that are sponsored and hired legally. Hench why, they are refer to as "MIGRANT WORKERS and not illegal immigrants." My Great Grandpa and Grandma were migrants’ workers who came here on their own dime without any government assistance and established a successful shipping business in Philadelphia, PA.
BTW, thanks for the English lesson "Professor Picky". Proper English also states you spell out "1" (one) when using it in text.
The fact nobody is addressing
The fact nobody is addressing is that when states crack down on illegal immigrants -- such as Georgia and Alabama -- the crops don't get picked.
That's the issue that needs to be addressed.
Whether that means turning a blind eye to illegal immigrants or making it easier for the people coming here illegally (completely immaterial to those coming here legally, because quite obviously, the numbers coming here legally are not sufficient to do the work, because when all you have are legal migrants, the work doesn't get done) -- something needs to be done.
Unless you just don't give a rip about farmers.
Conservative's positions on immigration always amaze me, because you would think it would be the conservative who would stand up first to protect the livelihood of the American Farmer.
One of the chief reasons I think the country is going to hell is that conservatives stopped being conservative in the past couple of decades. If their social agendas conflicts with free markets, then screw free markets.
Maybe there are people still
Maybe there are people still out here who think the first responsibility is to stand up for the rule of law and not situational ethics. Slavery dragged on far too long because it comprised so large a part of the US economy tied up in a booming cotton industry that the argument of economic disruption won out. And here we are again. We have allowed an institution to linger so long that ethics and the rule of law be damned in favor of the economy. After slavery ended, our economy survived. I'm certain there were disruptions but those disruptions in exchange for ending a barbaric practice define the perseverance of a free and moral nation. I am a proponent of American exceptionalism and truly believe that we would overcome the disruptions caused by bringing our labor force back in to compliance with the rule of law and stop compromising our standards. The setbacks we might suffer would be offset by returning much needed jobs to legal citizens or at least legal temporary workers. In turn, we can restore our country to the example to the rest of the world as a beacon for hard-working ambitious immigrants looking for the opportunity to prosper in freedom, not an open door for those without regard for laws and the expectation of endless handouts.
Definition of MIGRANT : One
Definition of MIGRANT
: One that migrates: as a: a person who moves regularly in order to find work especially in harvesting crops b: an animal that shifts from one habitat to another
— Migrant adjective
That could pertain to me if, I go from NY to California to pick seasonal crops.
im•mi•grant
noun \ˈi-mə-grənt\
Definition of IMMIGRANT
: one that immigrates: as a: a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence b: a plant or animal that becomes established in an area where it was previously unknown
Well Howard as I stated and just saw Kathy Hochul last night on the new, mention making it easier for a immigrant to get a work visa would help both getting the "CROPS PICKED" and strengthen our borders. My family was big farmers in this region so; to answer your question do I care about farmers "YES"! Oh yeah Conservatives are the only ones at fault here Howard. Left Wing vs. Right Wing; Good vs. Evil; it is a Liberals way of thinking our problems stems from only one side instead of two. I see the Liberals have been doing an awesome job (screaming with sarcasm) running this country. If Kathy Hochul with other sensible Congressmen can put their differences aside and construct a viable plan. Then this and other issues could be resolved.
My sons and their friends help pick fields for a local farmer in Stafford and they love it and ask to help every year. This farmer is also adding two new crops next year. Maybe it is time we lessen the burden on tax payers and start telling people to help their local farmers and augment their unemployment check until; we can establish a stronger job market in this hell bound country.
BTW, my opinion this country is going to hell because, all sides of government cannot grow up and work out problems. They have money and power already so, why worry about the commoners. Obama is sending this country further down the drain. His lack of leadership, lack of commitment, lack of understanding the issues at hand and his laziness. Such as him sitting back and acknowledge, that he knew the "Super Committee" was going to fail. What the heck is he being paid for?
The only situational ethics
The only situational ethics going on is one that denies a person a right to work, and a farmer the right to get his crops harvested, because of arbitrary laws that are based on emotion rather than rational analysis.
Not one person has yet to address the issue, the concrete indisputable fact, that citizen labor and legal migrants are insufficient to get crops harvested.
The poll question is about whether you would rather see farmers go bust or not.
The whole idea that
The whole idea that situational ethics is going on here is rather ludicrous.
There's two types of laws: Laws based on nature (natural law -- you don't take (covet) something that doesn't belong to you, you don't murder your neighbor); and laws based on some standard society wants to enforce.
Immigration laws are the later. They are not anything that can be found in natural law precepts. They are capricious (constantly changing according to the whims of the political times) and arbitrary.
If anything, they violate natural law because natural law, as Edmund Burke said, dictates that a person has the right to the fruits of his own labor.
Capricious and arbitrary immigration laws deny both the individual and the employer the right to enjoy the fruits of his own labor.
There is nothing conservative about the position most so-called conservatives take on immigration. It's pure-T emotion with a hint of racism.
The one good thing about Newt Gingrich is that he sees through this nonsense.
There is a poll on here
There is a poll on here asking if we should extend unemployment ,at the same time we are talking about the poor farmer not being able to find workers to pick his crops and as Howard would have it turning a blind eye to illegal immigrants...Is a farm job not a job..how can someone collect unemployment when there is such a great demand for farm labor.Whats wrong will a little prison labor out there picking them crops...Howard do we also turn a blind eye on illegals in the construction trade..Where else should we turn a blind eye to. Howard you act as if these illegal immigrants are just coming here to help us pick our crops...That is so wrong. There are working at all kind of jobs . Construction ,Food service,Lawn Care,Maid services the list goes on and on where do we draw the line..or as you say just turn a blind eye.. ...John has it right MIGRANT worker is different than an illegal immigrant.
The Illegal immigrant is breaking the law and should always be deported.........
Mark, I didn't say turn a
Mark, I didn't say turn a blind eye -- that's not the context. The point is, be realistic, and if you're realistic, what's your solution, what are the options? That's the point, that's the context.
High unemployment, but people still won't take many of these farm jobs.
Plenty, seemingly, of legal migrants, yet the crops go unpicked in Alabama and Georgia.
What's your reasonable solution, or is it just "screw the farmer"?
I'm tired of people using "high unemployment" as an excuse on this issue. The facts are in, the evidence is in, unemployed US citizens will NOT, under any circumstances, take these jobs. Bellyache about it all you want, but it's pure fantasy to keep engaging in the notion that the masses of unemployed are suddenly going to show up in the fields. Should we call these unemployed who won't take farm jobs lazy? I don't have a problem with that. Should we expect them to take these jobs as any job is better than no job, you won't get an argument from me. But the fact is, they won't and they don't and meanwhile crops go unharvested and local, state and national economies suffer.
So, what's your solution, or is it just, "to hell with the farmer"?
I would have unemployed take
I would have unemployed take some of those jobs....These farmers also have migrants children out there also picking their crops..Should that be allowed..When we are willing to go out and borrow money from China to extend unemployment benefits to pay people who claim certain jobs are too laborious for them to do,then they shouldn't be allowed any more benefits...I was serious about using prisoners to pick crops..It would be one way to defray the cost of there imprisonment...Most of them are under the age of 30...Why should labor laws be different for those that work on a farm vs.those that work in a factory..The guest worker program is a good start..Let them get work vistas to pick these crops i am for that..Why don't more apply for them ...I do believe alot of these farmers like hiring illegals because they can abuse them ..They don't follow any type of work rules..And if they can't get legal help then i guess the have to go bust..........
"I would have unemployed take
"I would have unemployed take some of those jobs"
How? With a gun to their heads?
"I was serious about using prisoners to pick crops"
Yes, chain gangs have proven to be so successful in American history, and the productivity level is sure to be a hit with farmers.
Now, how about some reality, Mark.
I realize this is a day or so
I realize this is a day or so late, but I saw this recently on Facebook:
If you cross the border of North Korea illegally, you get 12 years at hard labor. If you cross the Afgan border illegally, you get shot. Two Americans just got 8 years for crossing the Iranian border.
If you cross the United States border illegally, you get a job, a driver's license, food stamps, a place to live, healthcare, housing and child benefits, an education, and a tax free business for 7 years.
NO WONDER WE ARE A NATION IN DEBT!!
So, your point, Richard; we
So, your point, Richard; we should treat people more like some of the most repressive governments on the planet? ...And chisel the words from the Statue of Liberty plaque:
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
By Emma Lazarus, 1883
...Anyone wondering about the poet, Emma Lazarus- http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/31/books/review/Crain.t.html
Three points concerning your
Three points concerning your post, Howard.
1. "There's two types of laws: Laws based on nature (natural law -- you don't take (covet) something that doesn't belong to you, you don't murder your neighbor); and laws based on some standard society wants to enforce." Although it is another subject, you just nailed the pro-life argument.
2. "Immigration laws are the later. They are not anything that can be found in natural law precepts. They are capricious (constantly changing according to the whims of the political times) and arbitrary." I have not found any writings of our founding fathers that separate types of laws and none that indicate any are arbitrary and capricious. The ability to govern immigration was established in the Constitution by the Rule of Naturalization (art. 1 sec. 8)
3. I am surprised you would continue to recycle the tired, unfounded liberal talking point that Conservatives and Tea Partiers are racist.
...I'm not sure how the emoticon got in my post, but I can't get it out.
Well, at least it's a cool
Well, at least it's a cool sunglasses emoticon!
John, I thought that since the UN, an organization of separate countries sought to define "migrant worker" it was appropriate. My point through all of this is that the immigration laws are designed to control. To keep the masses down. The free flow of workers in and out of our borders is not in the interests of the powerful. Period. And I couldn't agree more with: "BTW, my opinion this country is going to hell because, all sides of government cannot grow up and work out problems. They have money and power already so, why worry about the commoners. Obama is sending this country further down the drain. His lack of leadership, lack of commitment, lack of understand the issues at hand and his laziness. Such as him sitting back and acknowledge, that he knew the "Super Committee" was going to fail. What the heck is he being paid for?"
I'm not really Professor Picky (pretty funny) I just thought that referring to Howard's comment as asinine and then spelling it wrong was humorously ironic.
This thread reminds me of a saying I saw somewhere: "Liberals want government to be your Mommy, Conservatives want government to be your Daddy, Libertarians want to be treated like adults" Examples above.
Howard you said about
Howard you said about unemployed ....Should we expect them to take these jobs as any job is better than no job, you won't get an argument from me...Then you reply to me ..How? With a gun to their heads?..No not with a gun to there head but to deny them there unemployment check......Thats a reality check....Did all these farmers always need illegal immigrants to pick their crops...Whats wrong with prison labor..Companys use prison labor all the time...From call centers to manufacturing and they are very productive....I saw last year California use prison labor to fight all the fires they had...Don't tell me they are not productive..
Howard, "The only situational
Howard, "The only situational ethics going on is one that denies a person a right to work, and a farmer the right to get his crops harvested, because of arbitrary laws that are based on emotion rather than rational analysis."
"According to DHS statistics nearly 7 million immigrants have achieved permanent legal citizenship over the last 5 years alone. Over 2.8 million temporary workers were admitted to the US just in 2010. Using the DHS statistics, nearly 4 million new people every year are in our country LEGALLY."
Now show me where we are denying people to work? Now here is some common sense for you and a few others. Are you currently aware of the situations happening south of our border? Charlie I am not just picking on the southern border because, there are problems on our northern too. Mexican authorities are fighting a battle against drug cartels, gangs, terrorist and Mexican Mafias. They are fighting all of these entities at once because; they all have one common goal. Do you know they are pushing their way north? Hmmm, let’s think for a moment on how they enter this country with the least resistance? Tick tock, tick tock, (Light Bulb Idea)! Here are some choices people. A) Through border checkpoints where they have a greater risk of being discover or B) Crossing the border either above or below ground and with the ability to avoid chokepoints such as the one at our border crossings?
What is your conclusion?
Howard, one last thing how many illegal immigrants do we need to work a farm? We already have 2.8 million but, lets not forget the men and women who work on farms that are U.S. citizen and not to mention the teenagers who have no problem harvesting for cash either. Howard stopping illegal immigration is not about denying farmers to hire, it is about helping to keep the violence out and keeping our citizens safe. How much do illegals cost other farmers when they steal crops and other supplies as they come in?
David, I loved your comments on Liberals and Conservatives. BTW, glad I made you smile. I will remember to proof read when I address you though.
Mark, I love your suggestion
Mark, I love your suggestion on using prison labor. After all they get three (03) hots and a cot, cable tv, free gym membership, etc... For the unemployment issue, you won't have to deny them a unemployment check but, you could informed them that it will be half of what they expect and get them job interview appointments for minimum waged jobs. Ding, Ding, Ding, I still have to work reality check comes to mind and then maybe, they will actually start looking for a full-time job or a couple part-time jobs.
Jeff, that is the problem
Jeff, that is the problem with liberals, they only care about the outsiders rather than their own. Their mind set is open our borders to allow all tom, dick and harrys in our country. Who cares if, they murder, raped, rob, commit crimes against humanity, etc... They did not do it here and/or they were forced to in their native land.
Conservatives on the other hand focus on only recognizing our rights and forget about everyone else. There is some cases where that should be the case. Roosevelt comments about, one nation and one common language are great ideals to follow.
Many of these immigrants entering our beloved country flee from persecution, humanity hardship, better lifestyle, etc..... So, if you flee to avoid or gain these issues then, why try to convert America into where you left? One common language does not mean to give up your native tongue, it's to help communicate with this country's majority. I fly the AMERICAN FLAG because, I consider myself an AMERICAN. I fly the Irish, Italian and Scottish flags at my office because, that is my HERITAGE.
David, we need to banish the
David, we need to banish the United Nations from our country and put into Switzerland. The UN is one of the biggest abuser and drains on our taxpayers.
John, although we are now
John, although we are now going off the subject. But I think the UN serves a purpose. I do NOT think it should be a governing body and I think we contribute way too much money to the UN. The Swiss probably don't want it there either, I'd suggest France.
This post went from
This post went from embarrassing to logical to embarrassing.
We should allow more legal
We should allow more legal workers to come into the country. I find nothing wrong with a guest worker program. But as many have stated if you sneak in you are a criminal.
Well Terry Paine "This post
Well Terry Paine "This post went from embarrassing to logical to embarrassing." What is what? The UN topic was directed to David and only David.
Are things logical, common sense, or just plain opinion? Embarrassing is in the eye of the beholder. I find no one’s comment embarrassing as it is their GOD given right to have their opinion.
Embarrassing is when people become naive and blind to truth. BTW, TRUTH is a three sided gathering of facts.