We need to figure out ways to make NYS more tax friendly to all businesses. When we need to bribe business to move into our state or county, we should recognize that the problem is not just local, it is systemic. Big government means high taxes, which means less business development, which results in a smaller tax base. Decrease the size of government and lower taxes across the board. Do this and every county in the state won't need economic development committees competing against each other for the last scraps of meat on the bone.
I wonder how the small, local, family owned sporting good businesses in the area feel about the taxes they have been forced to pay for years now being used to entice yet another big-box to come in and undercut their prices. I am for competition, but only when it's not government subsidized.
Also, how much did Lowe's pay back to the county? (Rhetorical question)
I know we can't choose which business' to give incentives to. Specialty stores, like Dicks do bring the kind of people to town that spend money. I think the trickle down benefits are much better with this type of store. I drive to Buffalo to go to Dicks or Gander Mountain, and even to Auburn to go to Bass Pro. Sportsmen spend money!
Sure, why not give the incentives to out-of-area big box? After all, the city has already proven that they don't care about the local mom-and-pops when they voted for Allied (TEXAS!) to take over the city trash business! ARC (LOCAL) had the business successfully for many years, and were cut off by the city so fast that it was like a slap in the face deal!
Rick, study after study has shown, large national retailers are a net economic loss to a region over locally owned stores.
When a tax incentive goes to, say, a yogurt manufacturer, they're only competing against other yogurt manufacturers, who not only probably received the same tax incentives, but are competing on a regional or national retail level in a market where customer buy multiple items. There isn't really an unfair advantage going to one company over the other ... they're still competing on price and quality.
When a retailer gets a tax incentive, it tilts a level playing field into an unfair one in favor of the company receiving the tax incentive against the existing company that must still pay the same property taxes and the same mortgage or rent the existing company has always paid. The company must pay the same vendors the same amount of money to get product and in order to remain profitable, must charge the same prices. The company getting the tax break now has a lower cost of doing business subsidized by the government. That's patently unfair and not free market capitalism.
It would be better if we lived in a system where the yogurt company didn't need tax breaks to build here, but the sad reality is its a reality, but at least there is nothing but plus-plus net economic benefit. There's no local economic benefit when a national retailer gets a tax break. There's only subtraction.
Dick's itself is not getting the break. It's the owner of the property, who already got one when it was originally built. What is the policy, give a tax break every time he rents to a new business? Just how many times is a property allowed to get tax breaks?
GCEDC is an IDA..Which stands for Industrial Development Agency..Not retail developmental agency..GDCEC has no right to hand out tax abatement on this kind of projects..They are spose to protect the local business not put them at a disadvantage...This is a 850,000 dollar property tax break..It has nothing to do with any type of state tax break..So it is we in the county who will lose out on this revenue..Schools and county government need that money..They don't even have a diffident number on the amount of minimum wage jobs this might create....I believe they are over stepping their authority on this.Hyde and company should stick to building industrial parks that remain half empty...This is an issue that should be taken up in front of the county legislators....They should also have to go in front of the planning board..The public should have finial say on this issue..Not Mr.Hyde and the GCEDC..
Howard....If I'm not mistaken I heard somewhere that GCEDC was gonna hold a public hearing before granting these tax breaks. Probably an appeasement to the public but if there is going to be one, when and where would it be?
So it's Dicks that the next article Howard posted is talking about? I commented there before I scrolled down as I nearly fell of my chair. Why do we need a Dicks when there is one in Rochester and Buffalo? It will just close in 3 years and we are again left with nothing and a buttload of people jobless and displaced again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
If somehow it is the Bass Pro that Buffalo lost, that would be a huge draw. So guess my judgement would be reserved for what they are bringing in.
Paul,
The need for a Dicks is not up for a vote. Dicks and the property owner make that decision. Some would like a Wegmans, but if your thinking was the rule, why should we have one, there some in Rochester and Buffalo also. There are Target stores in those cities also, so we don't need one here either.
As for Dicks maybe closing, who can you guarantee will not close. And if they do, at least people were employed while open that would not be working if they never came.
Wegmans and Target are not specialty stores so their that is comparing apples to oranges.
My wife left a job she had 4 years into to go to Lowes as it was a closer drive. It closed and she had to start from scratch again with tenure at another place. She would have been farther along if Lowes never came here and she just stayed put.
Lowes basically was a 3 year temp job, we don't need that again.
Wegmans sounds good too, Tops is a dump. You got me excited again.
Paul,
Your wife took a chance and life is not always fair. If Lowes had stayed open, but Target closed, somebody else would be saying the same as you. Dicks and the property owner are making a business decision. If you or or wife feel working there is too bid a risk, don't do it. Others might think the risk is worth it. They may not have a job now or think that Dicks, even if it did close, might lead to something better.
Have we established Dick's is the perspective tenant or is that something Howard put in the poll that makes sense but may not be correct? I am now assuming it is an example and that John likes Dick's and Home Depot. BTW I am not thumbing you down, someone else is.
There is a story in the Daily News about Dicks coming, and a related story about tax breaks for the property, but that's it.
I do like Dicks (and Gander Mountain) because there are just some tent camping items you can not get in Batavia at local shops.
I have no preference for Home Depot, and had none for Lowes, but there some items I can not get at Value.
The frustration with having tax breaks and incentives is understandable but I think some of the anger is misdirected. Read the comment from Assemblyman Steve Hawley.
“Hawley decried the decision to sweep $1.75 billion from the State Insurance Fund back into unrelated spending rather than refunding employers who overpaid for Workers’ Compensation premiums.“
“Hawley took particular exception to the extension of the 18-a utility tax, a surcharge passed in 2009 that was scheduled to sunset in 2014.” “The newly-adopted budget extended the fee, which will cost families and businesses $1.7 billion over the length of the four year extension.”
As a business owner these are the stupid decisions made in Albany by three men. We are required to carry this insurance, the NYS department of Insurance sets the rates, we get overcharged, and they keep the money!
Until we can get a pro business / anti-tax spend state government this is what we have to deal with.
Quit bashing the people trying to accomplish something / anything in light of this environment.
I was told a couple months ago about Dick's coming ... I've placed several calls and sent e-mails to Dick's PR group and haven't gotten so much as an acknowledgement that I exist, but I think my original information is good.
And the Daily has at least one source saying the same thing.
I think it's a fair bet that COR is working a deal with Dick's ... not being an expert, but guess as to why COR estimates so much for renovations and retrofitting of the Lowe's building is it needs to be retrofitted for a specialized retailer with exact specifications.
In other words, my guess -- and I don't often guess on such things -- is that Dick's will walk into a retail-ready story paid for by COR's and subsidized by taxpayers.
Putting it in COR's name now is way to protect the name of the actual business until the business is ready to announce its intentions. Same pattern as with Pepsi ... "Project Wave LLC" received all the benefits even though that was Muller/Pepsi all along.
Whether it's Dick's or not, it's a fair bet COR has an agreement with a leasee and is fronting the public tax incentives in order to build a retail-ready store for that already known (to them and to GCEDC) leasee. COR didn't just sit on this property for more than a year twiddling their thumbs, wondering what to do, and suddenly they decide -- hey, let's sink $4.5 million into it and see if there will be any takers. There's already a taker.
Dick's is not a store people want in this area if you are a gun owner/enthusiast. They have bought lock, stock, barrel into the knee jerk reaction crap towards responsible firearms ownership. Do some Google searches on Dick's, law enforcement, and firearms/ammo policies. Shop locally for your outdoor gear, money stays here and they actually respect the liberties of firearms ownership.
I just posted a clarification on the post about GCEDC's actions regarding COR's incentive package -- it's not approved yet, just approved for a public hearing. A final vote won't come until after the public hearing.
Leaving out the GCEDC tax break, if it is Dicks, we will get a boost in sales tax money. The sell a number of popular clothing brands like North Face, Columbia and Under Armour that people now go to Rochester or Buffalo to buy.
Better give them the tax break, or whatever, if not you are going to be looking at that empty building maybe for a few more years. Its the cost of doing business. One big problem with Batavia, being between Rochester and Buffalo. Literally between a rock and a hard place. Another catch phrase, beggers can't be choosers. We need the jobs, sales tax etc. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.....okay...enough said.
If COR wants to generate revenue on that building in the form of rent they will fill it with or without property abatement's..They need it fill up more then we the county does..Its all part of doing business...Our school district needs that property tax money more then COR .
We see personal property in genessee county foreclosed on for non payment of taxes all the time..Why are we not giving them tax abatements so that they can stay in their homes.
Why do we have to give a million company like COR a property tax break...If they can not afford to build these plaza's with out free property tax breaks then they should be in the business...Everyone i know of knew that Batavia wasn't big enough to support retail business of that size..Its the lure of free tax breaks that build them ..GCEDC is the one to blame for getting that built in the first place ..It is unsustainable without tax abatements..There for it shouldn't of been built..Now every time some one vacates that building they will want a tax break to rehab it...Might as well just make in a non profit..Because we will never see property tax revenue from it....With all this development GCEDC claims to create...How much property tax revenue have they created..My property taxes are going up not down...All this development should be making them go down............
We need to figure out ways to
We need to figure out ways to make NYS more tax friendly to all businesses. When we need to bribe business to move into our state or county, we should recognize that the problem is not just local, it is systemic. Big government means high taxes, which means less business development, which results in a smaller tax base. Decrease the size of government and lower taxes across the board. Do this and every county in the state won't need economic development committees competing against each other for the last scraps of meat on the bone.
Well said, Jim. I wonder how
Well said, Jim.
I wonder how the small, local, family owned sporting good businesses in the area feel about the taxes they have been forced to pay for years now being used to entice yet another big-box to come in and undercut their prices. I am for competition, but only when it's not government subsidized.
Also, how much did Lowe's pay back to the county? (Rhetorical question)
I know we can't choose which
I know we can't choose which business' to give incentives to. Specialty stores, like Dicks do bring the kind of people to town that spend money. I think the trickle down benefits are much better with this type of store. I drive to Buffalo to go to Dicks or Gander Mountain, and even to Auburn to go to Bass Pro. Sportsmen spend money!
Yes, Rick, we can choose.
Yes, Rick, we can choose. Let's choose, None.
I have nothing against Dick's per se, just about subsidizing them
I love it! You covered the
I love it! You covered the problem succinctly. Very well said, Jim.
Sure, why not give the
Sure, why not give the incentives to out-of-area big box? After all, the city has already proven that they don't care about the local mom-and-pops when they voted for Allied (TEXAS!) to take over the city trash business! ARC (LOCAL) had the business successfully for many years, and were cut off by the city so fast that it was like a slap in the face deal!
Does this mean that we'll
Does this mean that we'll have to like Dick's, now? (on facebook) *rimshot*
When i expanded my business
When i expanded my business in the town of Batavia, i received 10 years of tax breaks. The benefits are not limited to out of towners
Rick, study after study has
Rick, study after study has shown, large national retailers are a net economic loss to a region over locally owned stores.
When a tax incentive goes to, say, a yogurt manufacturer, they're only competing against other yogurt manufacturers, who not only probably received the same tax incentives, but are competing on a regional or national retail level in a market where customer buy multiple items. There isn't really an unfair advantage going to one company over the other ... they're still competing on price and quality.
When a retailer gets a tax incentive, it tilts a level playing field into an unfair one in favor of the company receiving the tax incentive against the existing company that must still pay the same property taxes and the same mortgage or rent the existing company has always paid. The company must pay the same vendors the same amount of money to get product and in order to remain profitable, must charge the same prices. The company getting the tax break now has a lower cost of doing business subsidized by the government. That's patently unfair and not free market capitalism.
It would be better if we lived in a system where the yogurt company didn't need tax breaks to build here, but the sad reality is its a reality, but at least there is nothing but plus-plus net economic benefit. There's no local economic benefit when a national retailer gets a tax break. There's only subtraction.
Dick's itself is not getting
Dick's itself is not getting the break. It's the owner of the property, who already got one when it was originally built. What is the policy, give a tax break every time he rents to a new business? Just how many times is a property allowed to get tax breaks?
GCEDC is an IDA..Which stands
GCEDC is an IDA..Which stands for Industrial Development Agency..Not retail developmental agency..GDCEC has no right to hand out tax abatement on this kind of projects..They are spose to protect the local business not put them at a disadvantage...This is a 850,000 dollar property tax break..It has nothing to do with any type of state tax break..So it is we in the county who will lose out on this revenue..Schools and county government need that money..They don't even have a diffident number on the amount of minimum wage jobs this might create....I believe they are over stepping their authority on this.Hyde and company should stick to building industrial parks that remain half empty...This is an issue that should be taken up in front of the county legislators....They should also have to go in front of the planning board..The public should have finial say on this issue..Not Mr.Hyde and the GCEDC..
Howard....If I'm not mistaken
Howard....If I'm not mistaken I heard somewhere that GCEDC was gonna hold a public hearing before granting these tax breaks. Probably an appeasement to the public but if there is going to be one, when and where would it be?
So it's Dicks that the next
So it's Dicks that the next article Howard posted is talking about? I commented there before I scrolled down as I nearly fell of my chair. Why do we need a Dicks when there is one in Rochester and Buffalo? It will just close in 3 years and we are again left with nothing and a buttload of people jobless and displaced again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
If somehow it is the Bass Pro that Buffalo lost, that would be a huge draw. So guess my judgement would be reserved for what they are bringing in.
Paul, The need for a Dicks is
Paul,
The need for a Dicks is not up for a vote. Dicks and the property owner make that decision. Some would like a Wegmans, but if your thinking was the rule, why should we have one, there some in Rochester and Buffalo also. There are Target stores in those cities also, so we don't need one here either.
As for Dicks maybe closing, who can you guarantee will not close. And if they do, at least people were employed while open that would not be working if they never came.
John, Wegmans and Target are
John,
Wegmans and Target are not specialty stores so their that is comparing apples to oranges.
My wife left a job she had 4 years into to go to Lowes as it was a closer drive. It closed and she had to start from scratch again with tenure at another place. She would have been farther along if Lowes never came here and she just stayed put.
Lowes basically was a 3 year temp job, we don't need that again.
Wegmans sounds good too, Tops is a dump. You got me excited again.
Paul, Your wife took a chance
Paul,
Your wife took a chance and life is not always fair. If Lowes had stayed open, but Target closed, somebody else would be saying the same as you. Dicks and the property owner are making a business decision. If you or or wife feel working there is too bid a risk, don't do it. Others might think the risk is worth it. They may not have a job now or think that Dicks, even if it did close, might lead to something better.
Have we established Dick's is
Have we established Dick's is the perspective tenant or is that something Howard put in the poll that makes sense but may not be correct? I am now assuming it is an example and that John likes Dick's and Home Depot. BTW I am not thumbing you down, someone else is.
There is a story in the Daily
There is a story in the Daily News about Dicks coming, and a related story about tax breaks for the property, but that's it.
I do like Dicks (and Gander Mountain) because there are just some tent camping items you can not get in Batavia at local shops.
I have no preference for Home Depot, and had none for Lowes, but there some items I can not get at Value.
Gotcha, don't get the Daily
Gotcha, don't get the Daily so I wasn't sure where it was coming from. Value does rule, wish I could get more there.
The frustration with having
The frustration with having tax breaks and incentives is understandable but I think some of the anger is misdirected. Read the comment from Assemblyman Steve Hawley.
“Hawley decried the decision to sweep $1.75 billion from the State Insurance Fund back into unrelated spending rather than refunding employers who overpaid for Workers’ Compensation premiums.“
“Hawley took particular exception to the extension of the 18-a utility tax, a surcharge passed in 2009 that was scheduled to sunset in 2014.” “The newly-adopted budget extended the fee, which will cost families and businesses $1.7 billion over the length of the four year extension.”
As a business owner these are the stupid decisions made in Albany by three men. We are required to carry this insurance, the NYS department of Insurance sets the rates, we get overcharged, and they keep the money!
Until we can get a pro business / anti-tax spend state government this is what we have to deal with.
Quit bashing the people trying to accomplish something / anything in light of this environment.
I was told a couple months
I was told a couple months ago about Dick's coming ... I've placed several calls and sent e-mails to Dick's PR group and haven't gotten so much as an acknowledgement that I exist, but I think my original information is good.
And the Daily has at least one source saying the same thing.
I think it's a fair bet that COR is working a deal with Dick's ... not being an expert, but guess as to why COR estimates so much for renovations and retrofitting of the Lowe's building is it needs to be retrofitted for a specialized retailer with exact specifications.
In other words, my guess -- and I don't often guess on such things -- is that Dick's will walk into a retail-ready story paid for by COR's and subsidized by taxpayers.
Putting it in COR's name now is way to protect the name of the actual business until the business is ready to announce its intentions. Same pattern as with Pepsi ... "Project Wave LLC" received all the benefits even though that was Muller/Pepsi all along.
Whether it's Dick's or not, it's a fair bet COR has an agreement with a leasee and is fronting the public tax incentives in order to build a retail-ready store for that already known (to them and to GCEDC) leasee. COR didn't just sit on this property for more than a year twiddling their thumbs, wondering what to do, and suddenly they decide -- hey, let's sink $4.5 million into it and see if there will be any takers. There's already a taker.
Mr. Barnard, I agree that the
Mr. Barnard, I agree that the state is a mess and not very business friendly.
But....2 wrongs do not make a right.
Dick's is not a store people
Dick's is not a store people want in this area if you are a gun owner/enthusiast. They have bought lock, stock, barrel into the knee jerk reaction crap towards responsible firearms ownership. Do some Google searches on Dick's, law enforcement, and firearms/ammo policies. Shop locally for your outdoor gear, money stays here and they actually respect the liberties of firearms ownership.
I just posted a clarification
I just posted a clarification on the post about GCEDC's actions regarding COR's incentive package -- it's not approved yet, just approved for a public hearing. A final vote won't come until after the public hearing.
Leaving out the GCEDC tax
Leaving out the GCEDC tax break, if it is Dicks, we will get a boost in sales tax money. The sell a number of popular clothing brands like North Face, Columbia and Under Armour that people now go to Rochester or Buffalo to buy.
Better give them the tax
Better give them the tax break, or whatever, if not you are going to be looking at that empty building maybe for a few more years. Its the cost of doing business. One big problem with Batavia, being between Rochester and Buffalo. Literally between a rock and a hard place. Another catch phrase, beggers can't be choosers. We need the jobs, sales tax etc. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.....okay...enough said.
If COR wants to generate
If COR wants to generate revenue on that building in the form of rent they will fill it with or without property abatement's..They need it fill up more then we the county does..Its all part of doing business...Our school district needs that property tax money more then COR .
We see personal property in genessee county foreclosed on for non payment of taxes all the time..Why are we not giving them tax abatements so that they can stay in their homes.
Why do we have to give a million company like COR a property tax break...If they can not afford to build these plaza's with out free property tax breaks then they should be in the business...Everyone i know of knew that Batavia wasn't big enough to support retail business of that size..Its the lure of free tax breaks that build them ..GCEDC is the one to blame for getting that built in the first place ..It is unsustainable without tax abatements..There for it shouldn't of been built..Now every time some one vacates that building they will want a tax break to rehab it...Might as well just make in a non profit..Because we will never see property tax revenue from it....With all this development GCEDC claims to create...How much property tax revenue have they created..My property taxes are going up not down...All this development should be making them go down............