I had no problem when I got the call that they locked down the Pembroke School District buildings. I am appreciative of the speed at which they can keep our children safer no matter where they are in proximity to the situation. They did not initially know where the third guy was. In such close proximity to major roads intersecting this county, he could have ended up anywhere by taking over a car driving by. If keeping the kids safe is an inconvenience then society has hit an even lower level than I thought.
What was written in yesterday's reporting was that there possibly were guns. Today's report said a handgun was found and a toy gun. Do we know which was pointed at the teller's head?
Based on the way the report was written do we know if the hand gun was found on any of the subjects?
No one was hurt in the bank.
If they were willing to hurt people why not take out a couple of able bodied men, or shoot at the cops?
I don't know when WBTA reported about the scene in the bank but there is no way for me to hear it and I didn't read the update till I was writing this post.
No, but the motives are not know and we don't know if they actually threatened anyone. Perceived is good enough for a crime and to shoot them, but its not evidence of actual intent.
I just linked to Scott DeSmit's story in a new post ... more details from the bank. It's pretty clear the suspects were coming across as dangerous people. And as an ex-cop, I hear bank robbery, I'm hearing "armed and dangerous." It would be unwise to assume anything else.
Funny..I was just talking to my father about this earlier today. He lives in Arizona but worked for the Batavia City School District for almost 20 years. He said if BOCES was in lock down, and there are students there from other districts beside the first two that were lockdown, Batavia and Oakfield, that would then be reason to lock down the other schools.
I understand safety of our students, and I have a child in a middle school in Wyoming County. But I raise the question of where do we protect our children without scaring them either.
Those three gentlemen threatened harm physically no matter what the weapon and definatively through emotion while commiting a crime. Clearly they aren't acting under high moral standards. How would you feel if you were at work one day doing whatever it is you do and the next person to walk in the building brandished a gun? Would you be the hero or the zero?
To elude to liberty vs safety after 9/11 is an insult to every person who spent time at ground zero. Tell me this, Did you respond there and help? Did you expose yourself to the particulates in the air that are now killing firemen, police, and volunteers? Unless you went down there you chose safety. Your arrogance is unbelievable.
I was not insulting anyone who has been to ground zero (such as myself) I was making comments in relation to the Patriot Act.
I was unable to respond and help because I was in training in the Navy at Great Lakes, Il.
Its not Arrogance its my choice in how to live, freedom is the solution to the human condition. Protection from evil should stop when it imposes itself upon my freedom.
And I am only 27. Mr. O'Brien is my father. I am just Peter.
Peter,
You know very well the Patriot Act and protecting kids from people who had a least one real gun(and as far as anyone knew at the time, maybe more), trying to get away from a being arrested, are not the same.
I'm not stirring the pot just expressing my point of view and defending it :)
I'm not saying they are the same, I used the the 9/12 comment to show how much I support Ben Franklin's idea, nothing more and then it was twisted on me.
It’s so easy to choose safety over security, but a line obviously has to be drawn. A threat, either tangible or divine, always exists against any group of people.
Was yesterday the first time that someone who used ‘threatening’ forces was on the loose in Genesee County?? I also don’t remember any schools in the southern tier going on lockdown during the first week of classes in September of 2006 when Bucky was on the loose.
It’s interesting to note that the proper law enforcement, who are over qualified to protect us, decided to call only one school district. Academia should stick to imparting academic knowledge and leave the decisions relating to the safety of the children up to the proper law enforcement officials. I’m sure if a threat existed, the powers to be would contact the necessary school districts. Nobody, includes the schools, can live everyday in fear.
At least this incident was proof to me that if something worse happened , the schools and children would be protected. I cant say the bank robbery was enuff to lock all schools down but if something worse ever happened then this is proof that Genesse County is prepared. I am more worried about school lock downs when really bad things happen and a student(s) is the main danger and does harm. I am just saying.
School emergency plans are pre-established and set into motion automatically to respond to set criteria. Emergency response plans are mandated by the state and federal government. During the cold war, plans were aimed at air attack. Since the Columbine assault- intruder alerts, bomb threat, health risks such as fire, toxic gas, dire weather conditions and loss of heat or water; security issues such as fights, custodial abduction, weapons- each has a tailored response that is documented and practiced so faculty and staff all know their specific duties depending on the risk.
Responses include: lock down, removing students to safe locations, student dismissal; staff are assigned to posts and locations with specific duties to mitigate the threat and keep the students safe. Most responses are keyed to need-to-know commands that allow procedures to go into effect without describing the threat, preventing panic or undo stress. (Of course cell phones compromise that effort.)
The BOCES coordinates interdistrict emergency communication. Since students are not always in one district or location, this makes sense. Do not forget that four times per day students are enroute to BOCES classes; there are also IP classes, field trips, work study and other services that would have students at locations outside the school building.
Emergency precautions are intended to protect students from harm. It seems odd that a general lockdown would be regarded as an unreasonable inconvenience. School districts are legally responsible for students from the minute they set foot on school grounds until they are dismissed. It would be negligent to judge a situation such as armed bank robbers at large without benefit of official information.
Is this a case of Monday morning quarterbacking or did some kid miss his tuxedo measurement appointment?
Did anyone give thought to the fact that if they didn't lock down the schools then school buses would be on the roads they were searching?
The buses would be delayed by road blocks and the kids would be left at the schools at dismissal time.
Perhaps, and this is just supposition, the powers that be made the decision to officially lock down the schools rather than put the children at risk. Just releasing the kids from school to have them wandering around the schools' campus, or worse, attempting to walk home because the buses were not there doesn't make sense given the situation.
If two men are capable of brandishing loaded weapons and holding them to the head of a bank teller, they are capable of most anything. Certainly stealing another vehicle was not out of the realm of possibility. Better safe than sorry. They could have gone to any school along the way and sought shelter and an easy hostage. Erring on the side of caution in this situation was a good thing to do.
GCC students, unlike public school students, are substantially adults. Although GCC's security forces were likely aware of the situation and took precautions, adults are afforded (and expect) personal responsibility. Locking down GCC (keep in mind it is primarily a commuter population) would be like insisting on a lockdown of businesses and residences. I believe they call that martial law. The resulting confrontations would be riskier than the threat posed by the fugitives.
Posted by Tyler Hall on June 20, 2009 - 2:17pm
I don't think that there were any road blocks in LeRoy that stopped the buses from being on time.
Were there any buses coming from Batavia to LeRoy? BOCES students, for example?
I know it was overkill, but I would rather have the schools be safe than sorry.
We have had too many incidents over the years where school officials chose to 'save' the snow day and keep the kids in school with the onset of bad weather. They ended up keeping kids way beyond dismissal time.
There are times when descretion is the better part of valor, and this was one of them.
Peter, You obviously do not have any children. While I value my freedom here in the United States, I would much rather know my kids were safely locked in their school or classroom or whatever. Desperate people do desperate things, and these people obviously did not want to be caught.
GCC is required by law to have some form of emergency response system. Being that they were probably not contact by the police or other emergency source, they did not act on their emergency response plan.
I don't have kids, but I sure as heck don't think all of the schools in Genesee County should have been on lockdown. These guys were on foot and were being hunted. They were no where near any of the schools, putting the schools on lockdown just induces panic for both the parents and the students.
Now, saying that no buses were going to be leaving, especially if they had to enter the area of the "man hunt" makes sense, but lockdowns and re-scheduling regents exams is not the right thing to do.
Posted by Chelsea Dobson on June 22, 2009 - 9:42am
...These guys were on foot and were being hunted.
That is information known at the time...however when looking at the bigger picture, was there a chance that one or more of them could steal a car?
Was there the chance that one or more of them could slip past the searchers and enter another school district?
Most of these schools are about 10 miles apart. It isn't a stretch that it had to be considered.
They were no where near any of the schools, putting the schools on lockdown just induces panic for both the parents and the students.
No doubt the teachers are capable of handling the children to keep them from a state of panic. The kids were safer in the school buildings rather than the latch key kids coming to an empty house, in the country, with the suspects still at large.
Not every child has stay at home parents. Many households have parents who are not home when the children come home from school. Where would your comfort level be in that situation? The kids supervised in school, or home alone?
Have you ever been in a lockdown situation? I have, multiple times.
In high school, generally, the students just want to leave. They don't know what's going on, they aren't told anything until after. Most of the time their cell phones have been confiscated or they're not allowed to use them. They have nothing to do but sit and wait. Teachers can rarely "control" situations like that.
There was a lockdown during my time in high school, and I was home alone. I was called by my parents, and was told to lock the door. Don't let anyone in or out. Call 911 immediately if anything happened.
I've also had "lockdown procedures" start while I was in college. Want chaos? That was chaotic.
And apparently you didn't finish reading my post. I said that keeping kids at school who live in that area, by keeping them off buses, was a smart move. Locking down schools miles away was a waste of time.
"Peter, You obviously do not have any children. While I value my freedom here in the United States, I would much rather know my kids were safely locked in their school or classroom or whatever. Desperate people do desperate things, and these people obviously did not want to be caught. "
Yes because no one can break a window and enter a classroom...
Think people. Unless the windows are on the second floor only they can enter anyways.
Posted by Chelsea Dobson on June 22, 2009 - 10:27am
Have you ever been in a lockdown situation? I have, multiple times.
In high school, generally, the students just want to leave. They don't know what's going on, they aren't told anything until after. Most of the time their cell phones have been confiscated or they're not allowed to use them. They have nothing to do but sit and wait. Teachers can rarely "control" situations like that.
So, the answer is to let them go about their normal business and whatever happens is not the responsibility of the school in charge?
There was a lockdown during my time in high school, and I was home alone. I was called by my parents, and was told to lock the door. Don't let anyone in or out. Call 911 immediately if anything happened.
How long would it take 911 to come to your house when the majority of law enforcement was out on a man hunt?
Why burden law enforcement more than they were on that day, or any occasion, where a large number of resources were working to apprehend armed criminals? Multiply your call to 911 by a few hundred home alone children for real or perceived intrusions of property.
I've also had "lockdown procedures" start while I was in college. Want chaos? That was chaotic.
We aren't talking about college students who, for the most part, are more than willing to tell you that they are adults and can handle adult situations.
And apparently you didn't finish reading my post. I said that keeping kids at school who live in that area, by keeping them off buses, was a smart move. Locking down schools miles away was a waste of time.
I understand your point of view. The distance between the schools is shortened when running cross fields. The reality is the schools (right or wrong) were concerned for the well being of the students. Maybe we should all thank God that we will never be put in a situation where a decision like that has to be made.
Even though sometimes these
Even though sometimes these lock downs create scheduling issues (especially with Regents in session), it's better safe than sorry.
There was no reason to lock
There was no reason to lock down Byron-Bergen and other districts that far away from the scene.
I had no problem when I got
I had no problem when I got the call that they locked down the Pembroke School District buildings. I am appreciative of the speed at which they can keep our children safer no matter where they are in proximity to the situation. They did not initially know where the third guy was. In such close proximity to major roads intersecting this county, he could have ended up anywhere by taking over a car driving by. If keeping the kids safe is an inconvenience then society has hit an even lower level than I thought.
There was no evidence that
There was no evidence that they were willing to hurt people. They did know the general location and had setup check points.
It was an over-reaction to close the distant schools.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty
to purchase a little Temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Peter, Who told you they were
Peter,
Who told you they were not willing to hurt people. They used the threat of deadly force to rob the bank.
I agree that the need to close a school in Pavilion or Pembroke was not there, but you seem willing to risk the saftey of kids.
Nobody had any way of knowing at the time what they might have done to escape.
Peter, they held a gun to the
Peter, they held a gun to the head of a teller. That's pretty threatening.
Peter, as you alluded
Peter, as you alluded earlier, no one knows what they were thinking or what tonights lottery numbers are
What was written in
What was written in yesterday's reporting was that there possibly were guns. Today's report said a handgun was found and a toy gun. Do we know which was pointed at the teller's head?
Based on the way the report was written do we know if the hand gun was found on any of the subjects?
No one was hurt in the bank.
If they were willing to hurt people why not take out a couple of able bodied men, or shoot at the cops?
I don't know when WBTA reported about the scene in the bank but there is no way for me to hear it and I didn't read the update till I was writing this post.
Peter, Are you saying the
Peter,
Are you saying the teller should have asked if the gun was real, or a toy?
No, but the motives are not
No, but the motives are not know and we don't know if they actually threatened anyone. Perceived is good enough for a crime and to shoot them, but its not evidence of actual intent.
I just linked to Scott
I just linked to Scott DeSmit's story in a new post ... more details from the bank. It's pretty clear the suspects were coming across as dangerous people. And as an ex-cop, I hear bank robbery, I'm hearing "armed and dangerous." It would be unwise to assume anything else.
Agreed, but lock down all the
Agreed, but lock down all the county schools?
Well, that wasn't a law
Well, that wasn't a law enforcement call. The schools decided to do that on their own.
Better to be safe than
Better to be safe than sorry...........
I'll choose liberty over
I'll choose liberty over safety any day Mark. Including September 12, 2001.
Funny..I was just talking to
Funny..I was just talking to my father about this earlier today. He lives in Arizona but worked for the Batavia City School District for almost 20 years. He said if BOCES was in lock down, and there are students there from other districts beside the first two that were lockdown, Batavia and Oakfield, that would then be reason to lock down the other schools.
I understand safety of our students, and I have a child in a middle school in Wyoming County. But I raise the question of where do we protect our children without scaring them either.
Mr. O'Brien, Those three
Mr. O'Brien,
Those three gentlemen threatened harm physically no matter what the weapon and definatively through emotion while commiting a crime. Clearly they aren't acting under high moral standards. How would you feel if you were at work one day doing whatever it is you do and the next person to walk in the building brandished a gun? Would you be the hero or the zero?
To elude to liberty vs safety after 9/11 is an insult to every person who spent time at ground zero. Tell me this, Did you respond there and help? Did you expose yourself to the particulates in the air that are now killing firemen, police, and volunteers? Unless you went down there you chose safety. Your arrogance is unbelievable.
Hero, I was not insulting
Hero,
I was not insulting anyone who has been to ground zero (such as myself) I was making comments in relation to the Patriot Act.
I was unable to respond and help because I was in training in the Navy at Great Lakes, Il.
Its not Arrogance its my choice in how to live, freedom is the solution to the human condition. Protection from evil should stop when it imposes itself upon my freedom.
And I am only 27. Mr. O'Brien is my father. I am just Peter.
Peter, You know very well the
Peter,
You know very well the Patriot Act and protecting kids from people who had a least one real gun(and as far as anyone knew at the time, maybe more), trying to get away from a being arrested, are not the same.
Who are you trying to kid?
God Peter, are you still
God Peter, are you still stirrin the pot on here?? Go take a shower or something LOL Just goofin with yah.
I'm not stirring the pot just
I'm not stirring the pot just expressing my point of view and defending it :)
I'm not saying they are the same, I used the the 9/12 comment to show how much I support Ben Franklin's idea, nothing more and then it was twisted on me.
It’s so easy to choose safety
It’s so easy to choose safety over security, but a line obviously has to be drawn. A threat, either tangible or divine, always exists against any group of people.
Was yesterday the first time that someone who used ‘threatening’ forces was on the loose in Genesee County?? I also don’t remember any schools in the southern tier going on lockdown during the first week of classes in September of 2006 when Bucky was on the loose.
It’s interesting to note that the proper law enforcement, who are over qualified to protect us, decided to call only one school district. Academia should stick to imparting academic knowledge and leave the decisions relating to the safety of the children up to the proper law enforcement officials. I’m sure if a threat existed, the powers to be would contact the necessary school districts. Nobody, includes the schools, can live everyday in fear.
At least this incident was
At least this incident was proof to me that if something worse happened , the schools and children would be protected. I cant say the bank robbery was enuff to lock all schools down but if something worse ever happened then this is proof that Genesse County is prepared. I am more worried about school lock downs when really bad things happen and a student(s) is the main danger and does harm. I am just saying.
School emergency plans are
School emergency plans are pre-established and set into motion automatically to respond to set criteria. Emergency response plans are mandated by the state and federal government. During the cold war, plans were aimed at air attack. Since the Columbine assault- intruder alerts, bomb threat, health risks such as fire, toxic gas, dire weather conditions and loss of heat or water; security issues such as fights, custodial abduction, weapons- each has a tailored response that is documented and practiced so faculty and staff all know their specific duties depending on the risk.
Responses include: lock down, removing students to safe locations, student dismissal; staff are assigned to posts and locations with specific duties to mitigate the threat and keep the students safe. Most responses are keyed to need-to-know commands that allow procedures to go into effect without describing the threat, preventing panic or undo stress. (Of course cell phones compromise that effort.)
The BOCES coordinates interdistrict emergency communication. Since students are not always in one district or location, this makes sense. Do not forget that four times per day students are enroute to BOCES classes; there are also IP classes, field trips, work study and other services that would have students at locations outside the school building.
Emergency precautions are intended to protect students from harm. It seems odd that a general lockdown would be regarded as an unreasonable inconvenience. School districts are legally responsible for students from the minute they set foot on school grounds until they are dismissed. It would be negligent to judge a situation such as armed bank robbers at large without benefit of official information.
Is this a case of Monday morning quarterbacking or did some kid miss his tuxedo measurement appointment?
Did anyone give thought to
Did anyone give thought to the fact that if they didn't lock down the schools then school buses would be on the roads they were searching?
The buses would be delayed by road blocks and the kids would be left at the schools at dismissal time.
Perhaps, and this is just supposition, the powers that be made the decision to officially lock down the schools rather than put the children at risk. Just releasing the kids from school to have them wandering around the schools' campus, or worse, attempting to walk home because the buses were not there doesn't make sense given the situation.
I don't think that there were
I don't think that there were any road blocks in LeRoy that stopped the buses from being on time.
If two men are capable of
If two men are capable of brandishing loaded weapons and holding them to the head of a bank teller, they are capable of most anything. Certainly stealing another vehicle was not out of the realm of possibility. Better safe than sorry. They could have gone to any school along the way and sought shelter and an easy hostage. Erring on the side of caution in this situation was a good thing to do.
A better question is why GCC
A better question is why GCC wasn't put on lockdown.
Public schools generally have only one or two doors open from the outside and a person monitoring each person that enters the building.
I can think of six entrances to the GCC campus that are unlocked throughout the day without anyone designated to watch who comes into the building.
Just my two cents.
GCC students, unlike public
GCC students, unlike public school students, are substantially adults. Although GCC's security forces were likely aware of the situation and took precautions, adults are afforded (and expect) personal responsibility. Locking down GCC (keep in mind it is primarily a commuter population) would be like insisting on a lockdown of businesses and residences. I believe they call that martial law. The resulting confrontations would be riskier than the threat posed by the fugitives.
Posted by Tyler Hall on June
Posted by Tyler Hall on June 20, 2009 - 2:17pm
I don't think that there were any road blocks in LeRoy that stopped the buses from being on time.
Were there any buses coming from Batavia to LeRoy? BOCES students, for example?
I know it was overkill, but I would rather have the schools be safe than sorry.
We have had too many incidents over the years where school officials chose to 'save' the snow day and keep the kids in school with the onset of bad weather. They ended up keeping kids way beyond dismissal time.
There are times when descretion is the better part of valor, and this was one of them.
Peter, You obviously do not
Peter, You obviously do not have any children. While I value my freedom here in the United States, I would much rather know my kids were safely locked in their school or classroom or whatever. Desperate people do desperate things, and these people obviously did not want to be caught.
GCC is required by law to
GCC is required by law to have some form of emergency response system. Being that they were probably not contact by the police or other emergency source, they did not act on their emergency response plan.
I don't have kids, but I sure as heck don't think all of the schools in Genesee County should have been on lockdown. These guys were on foot and were being hunted. They were no where near any of the schools, putting the schools on lockdown just induces panic for both the parents and the students.
Now, saying that no buses were going to be leaving, especially if they had to enter the area of the "man hunt" makes sense, but lockdowns and re-scheduling regents exams is not the right thing to do.
Posted by Chelsea Dobson on
Posted by Chelsea Dobson on June 22, 2009 - 9:42am
...These guys were on foot and were being hunted.
That is information known at the time...however when looking at the bigger picture, was there a chance that one or more of them could steal a car?
Was there the chance that one or more of them could slip past the searchers and enter another school district?
Most of these schools are about 10 miles apart. It isn't a stretch that it had to be considered.
They were no where near any of the schools, putting the schools on lockdown just induces panic for both the parents and the students.
No doubt the teachers are capable of handling the children to keep them from a state of panic. The kids were safer in the school buildings rather than the latch key kids coming to an empty house, in the country, with the suspects still at large.
Not every child has stay at home parents. Many households have parents who are not home when the children come home from school. Where would your comfort level be in that situation? The kids supervised in school, or home alone?
Have you ever been in a
Have you ever been in a lockdown situation? I have, multiple times.
In high school, generally, the students just want to leave. They don't know what's going on, they aren't told anything until after. Most of the time their cell phones have been confiscated or they're not allowed to use them. They have nothing to do but sit and wait. Teachers can rarely "control" situations like that.
There was a lockdown during my time in high school, and I was home alone. I was called by my parents, and was told to lock the door. Don't let anyone in or out. Call 911 immediately if anything happened.
I've also had "lockdown procedures" start while I was in college. Want chaos? That was chaotic.
And apparently you didn't finish reading my post. I said that keeping kids at school who live in that area, by keeping them off buses, was a smart move. Locking down schools miles away was a waste of time.
"Peter, You obviously do not
"Peter, You obviously do not have any children. While I value my freedom here in the United States, I would much rather know my kids were safely locked in their school or classroom or whatever. Desperate people do desperate things, and these people obviously did not want to be caught. "
Yes because no one can break a window and enter a classroom...
Think people. Unless the windows are on the second floor only they can enter anyways.
Posted by Chelsea Dobson on
Posted by Chelsea Dobson on June 22, 2009 - 10:27am
Have you ever been in a lockdown situation? I have, multiple times.
In high school, generally, the students just want to leave. They don't know what's going on, they aren't told anything until after. Most of the time their cell phones have been confiscated or they're not allowed to use them. They have nothing to do but sit and wait. Teachers can rarely "control" situations like that.
So, the answer is to let them go about their normal business and whatever happens is not the responsibility of the school in charge?
There was a lockdown during my time in high school, and I was home alone. I was called by my parents, and was told to lock the door. Don't let anyone in or out. Call 911 immediately if anything happened.
How long would it take 911 to come to your house when the majority of law enforcement was out on a man hunt?
Why burden law enforcement more than they were on that day, or any occasion, where a large number of resources were working to apprehend armed criminals? Multiply your call to 911 by a few hundred home alone children for real or perceived intrusions of property.
I've also had "lockdown procedures" start while I was in college. Want chaos? That was chaotic.
We aren't talking about college students who, for the most part, are more than willing to tell you that they are adults and can handle adult situations.
And apparently you didn't finish reading my post. I said that keeping kids at school who live in that area, by keeping them off buses, was a smart move. Locking down schools miles away was a waste of time.
I understand your point of view. The distance between the schools is shortened when running cross fields. The reality is the schools (right or wrong) were concerned for the well being of the students. Maybe we should all thank God that we will never be put in a situation where a decision like that has to be made.