No one will "be better off". People need to realize that the health care reform legislation isn't about health care - its mostly about social engineering and government control. This is the largest redistribution of wealth legislation that has ever been imposed on our society.
How does the health care reform law re-distribute wealth? The only ones making money on this will be insurance companies and doctors, they are already wealthy.
same old tired right wing GOP hysterical taliking points promoting the politics of fear & misinformation. i & my entire family will be better off. we have carefully researched the matter. who are you to speak for us?
I know that my family will be better off. I have a 22 year old part time college student/part time nanny. She will benefit immediately because with her part time college status she is not covered under our insurance.
My parents and my mother-in-law will also benefit immediately. The doughnut hole is eliminated which will mean a rebate for prescription drugs and the doughnut hole goes away for ever.
I also like that the insurance companies will have to give us 80% of those health care premiums in actual health care. Rebates will be given for the money not spent on care but paid in premiums. Insurance companies still make a profit, but people also get their monies worth.
Dave,
When you tax people and businesses to give the money to other people to buy something, that is redistribution of wealth. You might call it paying their fair share, but who are you to judge what is their fair share?
And we already do it for Social Security and other social programs, right? There is no real money in an SS account that has the name "Dave Olsen" on it. When you start to collect Social Security, somebody will be taxed to give it to you. That is redistribution. Your money was already spent. When you get your SS statement every year, it only tells you how much you paid in and projected payment in the future. It does not say you have any money.
And you might be better off getting some body's money to pay your medical expenses. But the person who has his money taken away to give it to you has a right to object, just as you have a right to say he should have to give it to you as his fair share.
Nancy Pelosi said that we needed to pass the bill so that the American public can see what is in it. Now it is passed, so let's see what's in it.
The Federal government will now take over the lending portion of Student Loans from the banking industry. This will mean job cuts in the private sector and more government jobs to run the actual lending while at the same time exposing the lending risk to taxpayer money as opposed to the banks money.
The healthcare bill provides for the hiring of 15,000 to 16,000 new IRS agents. Why is that? Could it be that taxation will be the main source of funding and not steamlining of services?
Dave asks "How does the health care reform law re-distribute wealth?" Well I'm glad you asked because I was actually reading some of the bill(why I torture myself, I don't know) and I started out near the end as opposed to the beginning since most people would simply give up after a while. The bill is actually a re-introduction of Affirmative Action and here are some quotes from it:
Pg. 878 SEC. 2213. TRAINING IN FAMILY MEDICINE, GENERAL INTERNAL MEDICINE, GENERAL PEDIATRICS, GERIATRICS, AND PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTSHIP. Provided through federal grants and contracts. PREFERENCE.—“In awarding grants or contracts under this section, the Secretary shall give preference to entities that have a demonstrated record of the following: Training individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups or disadvantaged backgrounds.”
Pg. 909 SEC. 765. ENHANCING THE PUBLIC HEALTH WORKFORCE. Provided through federal grants and contracts. PREFERENCE.—“In awarding grants or contracts under this section, the Secretary shall give preference to entities that have a demonstrated record of the following: Training individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups or disadvantaged backgrounds.”
Pg. 883 SEC. 748. TRAINING OF MEDICAL RESIDENTS IN COMMUNITY-BASED SETTINGS. Provided through federal grants and contracts. PREFERENCE.—“In awarding grants or contracts under this section, the Secretary shall give preference to entities that have a demonstrated record of the following: Training individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups or disadvantaged backgrounds.”
Labor unions are mentioned liberally in the bill and here is just one example:
Pg. 1009 provide grants for healthcare facilities to train new nurses and further training for existing nurses. Only unionized facilities qualify, and PREFERENCE.—In awarding grants under this section the Secretary shall give preference to programs that “provide for improving the diversity of the new nurse graduates to reflect changes in the demographics of the patient population”...not even sure what that means, are we going to be hiring senior citizen nurses?
This was the biggest and most expensive shell game perpetrated on the American public and we only now will be getting to see what is under the remaining shell.
Sure, John, and it's the same method that's been used for 234 years in America. We didn't always use a progressive income tax but taxes have always been there.
You and your ilk act like the Democrats are reinventing the way our government takes in money.
If one disqualifies empowerment of the disadvantaged as a legitimate role of government, there is no point of government, especially in a nation like ours- dedicated to preserving the minority voice and extending basic rights to "all men." Maybe that's the quest for those who challenge the right to health care and pensions as deserved only by those who can afford such luxuries.
Every business of government requires redistribution of wealth. That's how government works. Citizens are taxed; governments rule. There is an assumed quid pro quo, but the payoff for the rich is generally less tangible-more heart-warming than the payoff for the poor. Government could slip back a millenium to some feudal system that provides more stoic class-divisions. Perhaps those worried about depriving the ruling class would be gratified by the justice of whips, pillories and plague.
NO Richard, they are simply taking a few more points from the very wealthy instead of taking it from the poor and middle class, see: Bush Tax Cuts.
Every time we have a Republican president poor folks and the middle class are beaten into submission and told that only the very wealthy deserve what they have and on top of it, we should happily continue paying our share of taxes so those wealthy few can have a tax cut.
You see, Republicans don't cut taxes. They say they will and they whip their base into a frenzy by scapegoating minorities and poor people, but when they're given the reins all they do is hand out cash to their wealthy friends. Hate Democrats if you must, but at least we keep our promises. Barack Obama the candidate promised health care reform and Barack Obama the President of the United States elected by a vast majority of the citizenry DELIVERED ON HIS PROMISE Deal with it.
Chris,
Taxes are necessary for many things. The best example nationally is national defence and locally, police protection.
But taxes levied fairly on all is not the same as income redistribution. And redistribution only started in the 1930's. In addition, many people are exempt now from paying taxes at all.
Some, like you, approve of the new entitlements taking more money from some to give to others, again.
Chris,
This November will tell us if you are right.
Democrats in Erie County will tell us who is running against Chris Lee for Congress (Genesee County is too small to have a real say in either party). And you are looking now for somebody to run against Steve Hawley for the State Assembly.
If Democrats win either race, you prove your point. If they don't, we prove our point.
John, are you suggesting that taxes based on a percentage of income are less fair than identical dollar amounts? Bill Gates and I should both have a $5,000 annual tax bill?
The liberal vision is, that the individual needs to be controlled, that his aspirations need to be limited, that he has to learn to get along and go along. And that if that means dispiriting the individual, if that means economic or other forms of repression, then so be it for the good of the general society. And that a handful of individuals, self-appointed, who assume power one way or another, they will make the decisions for all the rest of us. In one form or another, that’s what Obama and the rest of the kool aid drinking statists believes.
Ok John, Jeff and Richard, I take your point about taxing or collecting from all and the government controlling where it gets spent. By the way I never said whether I feel better off or not with this law, I just asked a question. Actually, I don't much like being forced to do anything, but what are you going to do? torture yourself like Jeff said. I'm beat down pretty good.
C.M. he plagiarized it from Mark Levin's book, 'Liberty and Tyranny.' Not that he read the book, he probably just copy/pasted it from one of the right wing websites he likes to steal from.
Unbelievable. It saddens me that in this politically correct environment, even the republican opponents never even mentioned this. We're further "down the tubes" than I thought.
C.M. makes another good point here. The teabaggers, the birthers and other associated groups of morons seem to think that Obama somehow came to power without being voted into power. It's just that sort of ridiculous thinking that makes the members of that group who are tottering on the thin line of sanity shout vile epithets and throw bricks. They seem to think that their actions are justified and no one in their leadership is telling them that it's not OK.
Our Congressman, Chris Lee has refused to say publicly that violent and hateful actions by the teabagger crowd are not acceptable forms of behavior. It's this 'wink wink, nudge nudge', 'look the other way' attitude perpetuated by Republican leadership that is giving these nutbags their license to behave in the manner they are.
John, you don't know a damn thing about what the local Democratic Party is doing with regard to elections this November. I would appreciate it if you didn't attempt to make folks who frequent this website think that you do.
I can't speak for John, CM, but here is what I would say to that. First let it be known that I out right loathe the income tax and felt it should have never been created, but I don't live in that world, so let's talk reality.
I believe that a flat tax is the only fair way to do this. Whether you make $10,000 or $10,000,000, you pay the same. It should not be the fault of the public, that government cannot prioritize and spend within those limits. The Federal government has over stepped in so many ways and have created too much for the populous to handle.
It is not an unreasonable question to pose for a flat tax. Yes some on the bottom will pay more and some on the top will pay, but the middle class as a whole would pay less, hence increasing discretionary income. It has been proven in this country time again, when people have more they buy more! That money then goes right back into the system and supports the state, county and local governments, which by the way are the ones who are dealing with problems first hand not these Washington politics.
It's a question of fairness. You might think it's reasonable for someone who has more to pay more, while I feel the very existence of the income tax and IRS is a constitutional mess. At the end of the day, we should be fair to everyone.
10% flat tax rate for all! Then you wouldn't need to pay the scores of people at the IRS to audit us all!
In torturing ourselves we learn the truth about legislation that our representatives foist on us hoping that we will never actually investigate it on our own. So here is more torture: directly from a report by the House Ways and Means Committee on the new powers given to the IRS by the Healthcare bill.
*IRS agents verify if you have “acceptable” health care coverage;
*IRS has the authority to fine you up to $2,250 or 2 percent of your income (whichever is greater) for failure to prove that you have purchased “minimum essential coverage”;
*IRS can confiscate your tax refund;
*IRS audits are likely to increase;
*IRS will need up to $10 billion to administer the new health care program this decade;
*IRS may need to hire as many as 16,500 additional auditors, agents and other employees to investigate and collect billions in new taxes from Americans; and
*Nearly half of all these new individual mandate taxes will be paid by Americans earning
less than 300 percent of poverty ($66,150 for a family of four). (that's less than $250,000, my input)
Exemptions from the penalties?
"legislation specifically would exempt two groups of people from the IMT(Individual Mandate Tax): illegal aliens and incarcerated individuals."
Should I keep going, or does everyone just want to believe what they here from the people pushing this stuff through on talking points with the aid of Katie Couric, Brian Williams, Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, etc.
The legislation and supporting documents are out there now for public viewing, get involved, educate yourselves and vote accordingly.
Good job Chris promoting Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto" couldn't be more relevant or important for you and your socialist brethren to read.
Ok Jeff, so you educate yourself, find a candidate that supports your point of view and maybe even volunteer to help him (or her) campaign. Then when election day comes, people either just vote party line, the guy they'd rather have a beer with, or a name they recognize. The reason our representatives foist laws on us and hope noone investigates, is because that's what happens. Very few people have any clue about this new law or any other for that matter. I'm going to focus on making more money so I can pay my taxes like a good peasant.
Chris, plaese don't feign outrage at a brick through a window and a few slurs by a couple of morons when we watched 8 years of hate-filled anti-Bush signs, Bush effigies hung by ropes and burned, and more recently Anti-Right lunatics shooting co-workers in Alabama, guards at the Pentagon and flying a plane into an IRS office with no condemnation from the left, in fact the left passed them off as right-wing despite there clear evidence of the opposite. There are extreme fringe elements on both sides and it all should be condemned.
Dave you say "Very few people have any clue about this new law or any other for that matter. I'm going to focus on making more money so I can pay my taxes like a good peasant." That is exactly why we are in this mess.
You're not Howard, but the good news is because you don't make enough money in your business, you won't be forced to pay for insurance for your staff! Oh wait...you don't have staff...and you still need insurance yourself or you'll be fined...oh well I tried!
Joking aside, I have been reading this bill as well. There are so many things in here that will not help anyone except the government. I understand that this was a tough problem, but these measures are garbage! I know that everyone wants to be happy for this historical bill, but I'm not buying yet.
I'm not feigning anything Jeff and I take serious offense to your statement that I am.
It is unacceptable to threaten the life of an American President no matter how much you hate him/her. It is also unacceptable shout hateful epithets at, vandalize the property of and physically attack members of Congress, no matter what their political affiliation..
I keep hearing Republican mouthpieces call these 'isolated incidents' but here's a grammatical point for you: An 'incident' can be isolated, but 'incidents' cannot. You see, 'isolated' suggests a singular happening, so to use the plural 'incidents' one is admitting that there is more than one, or even many happenings.
A singular incident of the behavior we've seen is wholly unacceptable, but for these attacks (physical, verbal and otherwise) to be happening at the rate they are all the while being supported or ignored by elected members of the Republican party is unconscionable.
I think the reason that there hasn't been instant condemnation is that there has been no supporting evidence or corroboration. Several videos from multiple angles have not been able to support the allegations by video or audio. At this point they are merely allegations, however it is a decent attempt at a diversion from the point. I have not engaged in talking points, but have presented evidence from the actual bill and other government documents, yet no one is debating the merits or dismerits of it on anything other than what has been reported by the media or on pre-existing partisan ideals. Like Howard said, "I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me how I'm going to benefit from this."
Jeff, do you think there was no supporting evidence of the brick thrown through Louise Slaughter's office? How about the assassination threats she and her family received? Are you accusing John Lewis and Barney Frank of lying?
You're completely unwilling to believe that people are doing these things and that concerns me. The perpetrators of these attacks are casting an un-washable stain on the Republican party and the good people in it. This isn't about taxes to these animals, it's about their own bigotry and hatred. Their actions are drowning out the reasonable voices inside the Republican Party and Republican leadership is allowing them to do so. This won't end until these people are condemned and outcast or until somebody gets seriously hurt or killed. Which would you prefer?
Rock on Jeff! No one wants to talk about these things beacause there is no answer. It's a law now, instead "we" just want to focus on the top 20 bullet points that would have been in there regardless of which party wrote it.
Rich, I can hear the gears in your head grinding all the way up here in sunny Batavia. You keep trying there kiddo, I'm sure you'll get one up on me someday.
Here's a hint: All I do is Google the first line of every post you make that sounds like it was written by somebody smarter than you. I haven't been wrong yet.
Doing the due diligence isn't a waste of time, it's the right thing to do. Isn't it time for you to kneel before your statue of Ronald Reagan and burn your offerings?
Jeff, I've having this discussion for over 30 years. The only differences in my life or the lives of my family have been made by our personal efforts and hard work, not by trying to get people to pay attention and take responsibility for our government. Not even bitching about our elected representatives and writing letters does any good, admittedly I can't stop myself but at least I know it's futile. Helps me feel a little better. Besides, if I don't earn enough to pay my obligations, who will? The government? Not me.
I have been reading the health care bill since it was available on-line so that I could decide for myself who was lying, who was telling the truth and what my stand would be.
There is no dispute that some folks will feel that they are “better off” with the immediate short-term benefits of the health care reform bill. It’s the same feeling you get when you buy a new vehicle…it solves your immediate need for safe and reliable transportation; so you tend to overlook some of the undesirable long-term outcomes: costly repairs, increased auto insurance rates and that pesky little check engine light.
The health care debate is now focused on the long-term implications of the bill. Do we really want more government entitlements that will only serve to discourage people from trying to improve their standard of living through hard work and sacrifice? Too many Americans have become either complacent with being on welfare….or worse- “poor by design”- to stay on welfare.
Case in point: an acquaintance of mine receives several government entitlements: food stamps, child care subsidy, housing subsidy, free health care already and most recently a government sponsored low-interest car loan. She also received an $8000 Earned Income Credit windfall; which she used to take her family on an expensive vacation and various shopping sprees---totally legal and paid for by our tax dollars! I should also mention that she refuses to work over a certain number of hours (underemployed-by-choice) so that she can maintain her poverty level status.
The system should always have a safety net for those that are truly poor or have suffered a temporary setback and need a hand up. But let’s get real…when it gets to the point that government is subsidizing vacations for the so-called poor… something is seriously wrong.
President Ronald Reagan's record includes sweeping economic reforms and deep across-the-board tax cuts, market deregulation, and sound monetary policies to contain inflation. His policies resulted in the largest peacetime economic boom in American history and nearly 35 million more jobs. As the Joint Economic Committee reported in April 2000:2
In 1981, newly elected President Ronald Reagan refocused fiscal policy on the long run. He proposed, and Congress passed, sharp cuts in marginal tax rates. The cuts increased incentives to work and stimulated growth. These were funda-mental policy changes that provided the foundation for the Great Expansion that began in December 1982.
I seem to remember a brick being thrown through another office window and the investigation revealed it was actually done by a supporter and then blamed on the protesters. Are Lewis and Franks lying? I don't know, but I do know the difference between an allegation and actuality. But again, none of that debates the content of the bill.
The burnt offering to Ronald Reagan comment is very funny Chris, I think some people actually do that. William O Douglas quote: "Since when have we Americans been expected to bow submissively to authority and speak with awe and reverence to those who represent us? "
Reagan put all of that on the national credit card Rich. Talk about your kids having to pay for your programs.
Howard, depending on our staffing levels, our business will probably qualify for a 35% tax credit for our healthcare costs. We have always paid 100% of our covered employees health insurance and every December/January in recent memory I have agonized over whether or not we'll be able to afford to continue that practice. This year, I won't even have to think about it because even after covering the part time folks we'll be spending less overall. Not a bad deal.
The Reagan's free market policies helped create the largest peacetime economic boom in American history....
as well as the largest economic downturn since the great depression.
I finished that thought for you Rich, i wasn't sure if your keyboard batteries died or you had a power outage. :)
I'll be fair here as well, since I wouldn't want to be accused of simply going after Republicans. Bill Clinton reinstated some of Reagans market deregulations that had been repealed by Bush the First, so the country didn't get to feel the full force of Reagan's folly until much later.
My, My, My We are in for a Rude Awakening...
While I support the Prezzz, In my opinion this was a Big Mistake. We are soon, going to have a mess on our hands, in hospitals, doctors offices, red tape, and paperwork. It will be as big of a disaster as Canada's Healthcare. You will wait longer for care, the quality of care will suffer, and the pharmicutical companies will make a killing. Our elderly will be pumped full of pills, for this and that, just for the profit. We are Doomed..
Ronald Reagan didn't cut taxes but for 1 year, Richard... the economy immediately tanked, and he subsequently raised taxes in each successive year of his presidency... including the single largest tax increase in the history of America ever, the Payroll Tax. Then the single largest energy tax increase in American history the year after he did that - increasing the total tax burden on all Americans. And he did this all with a GOP majority in the Senate and the GOP-Dixiecrat coalition in the House.
When the Democrats finally retook the Senate in 1986, the national debt had doubled, the Savings & Loan Crisis had occured and the entire financial system was nearly wrecked. GDP, Production, Jobs and Revenues all plummeted during these 6 years. And the one and only Bob Dole led the charge from the GOP to help them succeed in reversing all of this by raising taxes, which only succeeded after the total tax increases were larger than the total tax cuts implemented.
And the largest, and longest, peacetime economic boom was in the 90s... When Bill Clinton was President, and taxes were raised.
Do you want to attempt to try and pretend that he won the Cold War too...?
Chris...if you agonized over whether or not you would be able to continue health care coverage for your employees in the past, I assume that it was because of business conditions. As a business owner you had a choice on whether to continue the practise. Does it concern you at all that those same business conditions may re-appear and even with the tax breaks you won't be able to afford health care coverage for your employees?...only this time you won't have the option to decline.
We never agonized over whether or not to provide the coverage, that was always a given. The question was whether or not we should continue to pay 100%. Our covered employees have never had to pay a dime for their health insurance outside of their co-pays, we even cover the hospitalization copay, should the need arise. This legislation will save us tens of thousands of dollars annually.
Thanks Phil...would you believe that I was de-friended on facebook by a relative who didn't like my opinion. If this issue can't be discussed openly and rationally, then this country has bigger problems than health care.
I don't Tony, but I don't think anyone should take pride that the only way this country can survive is by constantly increasing taxes, so more programs can be created.
I think it's just sad that anyone on here would boast about taking more money from people. Taxes will continue to rise because this government is taking over our daily lives. Every year there are hundreds of new bills that tell us what we can and can't do.
Do you want lower taxes? Then stop spending money! This silly need to keep creating programs to solve problems doesn't work. It only creates more problems that we then have to reform. Those reforms become a new set of problems in which we amend and so on and so on.
There are at least two dozen things that Jeff and I have mentioned that will end up hurting so many people. This back and forth over which president did what is pointless. Reagan screwed up, both Bush's screwed up, Clinton screwed up and now Obama has screwed up.
You call this mosterous piece, success? I have been reading it for a day and I know that a large quantity is garbage. Get over your little "Party War" and read this Bill! I challenge any Democrat to read it.Stop reading bullet points. For the Republicans, stop your damn griping, you have made our country a mess as well!
Tony and Chris are in denial Reagan's policies saved this country from where California, NY and NJ are now broke form social programs. Let's see-how much has the national debt increased under Obama? What is unemployment under Obama? um GDP? don't worry at least the crack heads and the rest of the riff raff will get free health care now.
Phil - Maybe. But I think the most important thing to note is that the government is itself a very strong economic player. Government spends money, government invests money, government loans money. They are integral to the economy. For example, the student loan thing in the reconciliation that will certainly draw ire-- where the government gets to pick and choose who can grant student loans? The most common student loan, one which I have quite the tally in, is the Stafford Loan. It used to be called the "Federal Guaranteed Student Loan." Now, with banks failing left and right as a result of their over reaching and over playing their hand in real estate and high-risk markets, is it not in their best interest to protect their investment and ensure they get their money back instead of auctioning off the funds?
I would assume Chris that puts your business in the less than 25 employees earning an average of less than $40,000. That is who qualifies for the 35% tax credit. Now first of all, let me commend you for providing health coverage for your employees, that is being a responsible employer and you should be given credit fro doing so. Full benefit of the tax credit assumes that your business has income of less than $250,000 annually and that healthcare costs remain flat. The latter is has yet to be explained when no real tort reform was included, no real cross state competition, and the addition of 32 million people many of whom will be immediately upside down in their coverage(payouts for pre-existing conditions and high risk behaviors far exceeding the premiums).
I didn't realize you had such high-quality psychotropic drugs down there in Texas, Rich.
Given, the unemployment rate isn't where it needs to be, but that problem has spanned two administrations. We'll see what happens when spring comes and the construction companies around the country start hiring.
I think you may be a bit surprised if you look at the eebt increase as a percentage value instead of in raw dollars. After all, the inflation caused by Reagan's economic policies made the 'value' of the dollar what it is today.
Chris, correct me if I am wrong here...you never agonized over your decision each year to continue coverage for full-time employees because it was based mainly on your business philosophy to do right by your employees and economics only determined how much? My question to you is...what percentage of your decision to NOT cover part time employees in the past was based on philosophy and what part was economics? And again I ask you...aren't you concerned that mandated coverage for your employees, even with the tax breaks, might some day not SAVE you tens of thousands of dollars annually, but jeopardize your your business?
Jeff, remember that $250,000 is net, not gross. What we get in tax credits is going to depend on our part-time staffing. Our full time staffing level is pretty static. Even if we only qualify for a partial credit, we're going to save a pile of money.
For the record, we agree on reasonable tort reform and buying across state lines. Tort reform should have been easy (relative to the rest of the bill) but the state line thing would have been complicated due to different states having different governing rules about operating an insurance company, corporate taxes and so on. I think it would have been very difficult for the Federal government to do something like that without stepping all over state's rights.
Actually, Richard... you are in denial of Reagan's actual legacy. He wasn't terribly popular until the mid-90s when he announced he had Alzheimer's, then all of a sudden people had all kinds of fond memories.
Meanwhile, in reality, he sat idly by as Charlie Wilson armed the Afghans with the very weapons they use to harm our soldiers today. He negotiated with terrorists to sell arms to Hezbollah to achieve the release of hostages, a group that Terry Anderson was among, but not released as part of the deal. The money from selling these arms to Hezbollah were then diverted to the Contras in Nicaragua. To further fund those Contras, he allowed Manuel Noriega, the military dictator of Panama, to lead the largest Cocaine smuggling ring ever to pollute our streets with the drug. All this, and he still almost started World War 3 on several occassions.
Reagan saved something alright... he saved Richard Nixon's legacy from being known as the most corrupt President ever. For some reason I can't figure out, the Republican Party wants more Reagan... but what they really need is more Eisenhower.
No, JoAnne, I'm not and here's why. Our company doesn't fall under the mandate because we have less than 25 employees. I'm tempted to discuss the other end of the equation which has to do with net profits, but I have to draw the line at discussing the specifics of company finances.
I'll say this though, I know that this legislation will benefit our business. I can't say with any surety that it will benefit every business in the country, but for businesses like ours it's going to help.
"Even if we only qualify for a partial credit, we're going to save a pile of money." Chris, I honestly hope you are correct, because it is businesses like yours that are the backbone of our economy. As you flourish, so does America. I do have my doubts that you will see the pile of money you've been led to believe is waiting for you. I truly hope I am wrong.
Howard if I do that Bea and Chris will get terribly bored and will never use their favorite search engine then the economy will fall apart because google's stock price will plummet-not to mention what will happen to your number of clicks.
Thank you Jeff. I'm confident that the bill will be a boon to us and, like all locally owned and operated businesses, we'll make sure that money finds its way back into the local economy.
I would love to continue with this lively debate, but I have to leave for work so that I can stay above the poverty level the old fashioned American way...hard work and perseverence.
Richard, it's the right thing to do. The sources deserve credit and the links, and the readers deserve a chance to click through and see if a writer is quoting in context. Standard Web etiquette.
Per Rep. John Dingle (D-MI) yesterday, we'll all be better off.
"Let me remind you this [Americans allegedly dying because of lack of universal health care] has been going on for years. We are bringing it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you're going to pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people."
He was being interviewed by Paul Smith of WJR Radio and responded to a question about why the the legislation was being implemented over several years.
Kevin, I do hope you were posting that to point out the last part of his quote "...it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people." ...to control the people? I know it's not a misprint because I heard the interview.
Tony, that reason is no more than a symptom of the problem. There was a point in time when working for the government was an undesirable job. There were not a lot of them and private enterprise is what was the basis for our economy.
Now in almost every single county, state and yes the country government is the #1 employer. So yes, you are right to say that the government is a very strong economic player, but that isn't a good thing. The government keeps getting stronger off the creation of more and more programs that need more money to fund and run.
I understand your example, but the point is why are they in that business at all? Student tuition has continued to increase at an alarming rate. The biggest reason that state schools have, is the decrease in public funding. So we over tax, cut funding support and then make you borrow from us to go!
Here is another whopper of bureaucratic waste... Pg. 502 the establishment of "THE CENTER FOR COMPARATIVE EFFECTIVENESS RESEARCH" Purpose...conduct, support, and synthesize research relevant to the comparative effectiveness of the full spectrum of health care items, services and systems, including pharmaceuticals, medical devices, medical and surgical procedures, and other medical interventions;... Don't we already have people doing this through major universities and medical professional institutions? 22 pages just to outline this new uneccessary agency.
95 pages on new governemnt oversight of Nursing Homes.
15 pages on the establishment of "NATIONAL PRIORITIES FOR QUALITY IMPROVEMENT" including at minimum $2,000,000 annually just to figure out what we should spend the money on first.
We should split this monstrosity into sections and all take a crack at it. Remember this bill does not include the 246 Billion dollar "doc fix" which Pelosi and Reid assure us will be added later.
And the bill that Obama signed with all the pomp and circumstance yesterday, or as Joe calls it the "big f***ing deal", somehow the Executive Order used to buy off Stupak was signed in a closed door no media session. Hmmmmmmmm.
War, Insurance companies, Auto Makers, Mortgage lenders, Education lenders, Health care whats next?
It won't be long before there into our 401k's and 403b's. In a way they all ready are, printing more money only devalues them.
Everyone knows you can only build that house of cards so high before history does repeat it self. I hate to think stock piling food, water, silver, gold, and lead will be the best investment for our kids future.
If I didnt love being a "21st century guy" so much, with all my electronics, i think this would be the perfect time to become AMISH.
I already have a strong faith in God, I positivalutely LOVE to work, and I believe that through hard work ONLY should a man or woman receive $$ to live on. Boy, oh boy do i not fit the bill of what OBAMA and the rest of the worthless, lazy liberals think this country should be made up of.
Posted by Tim Howe on March 24, 2010 - 5:36pm
....and the rest of the worthless, lazy liberals think this country should be made up of.
Yep, we are a worthless bunch. Not one of us worked a day in our lazy lives. Not one of us ever paid taxes or contributed to the society in which we live.
I don't know how old you are, Tim, but I started working in 1954! I continued working, and paid taxes until I retired a year ago. Tim that is 51 years of laziness.
51 years of being worthless, in your eyes. 51 years of contributing my share to the well being of our community.
I am one of those, worthless, lazy liberals who now, as retired, manages a successful volunteer snack shop that privides affordable and healthy snacks to senior citizens. I don't log the hours that I spend on that project, but it is almost the equivalent of a full time job.
In my spare time, this lazy, worthless liberal takes the time to provide senior citizens with a newsletter and monthly calendar outlining events (which, by the way, I chair the event committee)that take place in our senior community.
There are many of us worthless, lazy liberals who make a contribution to this earth on a daily basis.
You are painting many with a broad brush that I find insulting.
So, you don't want health care reform. Had the bill not passed, would you be sitting at your computer gloating that you "won" a victory for insurance companies to continue to gouge all of us? Would you be celebrating that those who have pre-existing conditions would not be covered? Is there a happy dance for those who contract a disease or are involved in an accident that causes their insurance companies to drop their coverage?
Bea...you are using the same broad brush that you accuse Tim of using...and I find that equally insulting. Just because I don't support THIS health care reform bill doesn't mean that I don't support health care reform. Do you really think that all of us that don't support this bill for some very valid reasons are doing a "happy dance" for those that contract a disease or are involved in an accident that causes their insurance companies to drop their coverage? I don't even know how to respond to that ridiculous statement.
JoAnne, not as ridiculous as it sounds. You may want to make me sound ridiculous, but when Tim used that broad brush, I wondered why no one jumped in to let him know that not every liberal is worthless or lazy.
I did not paint everyone with a broad brush with my statement, I addressed it to Tim. Are you insulted for him?
Perhaps it is the liberal part of me who truly believes that most people in this world have compassion and have a good side to them. I don't care what their politics, they are my fellow citizens and together we make up this wonderful country. I don't believe that most on this board approve of the tactics we've witnessed in the past few days. The racial slurs, the bigotry, the threats and hatred are not part of my makeup and I don't believe it is part of most on this board.
THIS health care bill is long time coming, it has been in the works since Truman, for heaven's sake. The GOP claims that we still need time. How much more time? Have you ever witnessed the GOP, when in power, even addressing health care reform?
You may not see Tim's diatribe as insulting, and that is your choice. You may also see my questioning Tim regarding how he would be reacting if the bill had not passed as ridiculous, once again your choice.
But, I like you have the right to state an opinion without being made to feel foolish for not going into lockstep with the likes of Tim.
Chris...your explanation was clear and concise...thanks! I am glad to find that there is something in this bill that will help support locally owned and operated businesses. I hope it does save you a pile of money so that you can continue to support the local economy.
Jeff, you need to stop getting your "news" from Rush Limbaugh and other people who lie to you. There is no new 15,000 IRS agents. Please read the bill. You'll find out that all the things the fearmongers told you are in there are, in fact, not.
And Richard, I hope like most people you eventually realize that that Ayn Rand style nonsense is, well, nonsense. The fact of the matter is that every day you're aided and protected by the government in the form of police, fire departments, product safety regulations, the laws that make it possible to broadcast TV, radio, and cell phone signals, public roads, public sanitation, clean water, vehicle crash testing, and on, and on.
You then go on to bash that same government for "limiting your freedom." Apparently that's the freedom to be bullied and controlled by unfair market manipulation, ala the 1800s when people worked 18 hour days for credit at the company store. Or the freedom to buy poisonous toys from China, and have your your children get sick because of it.
The myth that has been sold to people of "rugged individualism" and a "market free from government interference" is a figment of the same big-business people who benefit from having no controls on how they exploit their wealth. It's the fairy tale that if you just completely give over the reins to the billionaires, then one day you could be rich just like them. But all you have to do is look at the Wall Street bubbles to see how well a market free from "government interference" has worked for the last 10 years or so: You get credit default swaps, Bernie Madoff, Enron, Arthur Andersen, etcetera.
"The myth that has been sold to people of "rugged individualism" and a "market free from government interference" is a figment of the same big-business people who benefit from having no controls on how they exploit their wealth."
Go tell that the owners of L.B. Grand that "market free from government interference" is a myth.
It is "my government right or wrong" that creates an environment where those types of things can happen.
Bea...perhaps you just read want you wanted to read into my post so that you could accuse me of trying to make you look ridiculous. I said your comment was EQUALLY insulting as Tim's. It sounds as though you are too busy looking for the "good" in people that you can't see the forest for the trees; so if you feel foolish...don't blame me.
LOL Bea!!!! You wanna know the funniest thing about this? My personal beliefs are that you of all people (your age group that is) are the ONLY people in this country that should be taken care of by the gov't. Truly taken care of. In a "worry free" kind of way. I actually believe it to be sickening the way we treat our senior citizens in this country.
I will debate this huge mistake of health care "reform" (and i use that term loosely) with you all night long and with a burning fire in my eyes, but i guarantee if i were to meet you on the street, i would be the first to open a door for you and tip my hat to you. Hat tipping really is a lost art among us 36 year olds (to answer your question about my age)
It sounds like YOU have certainly been a productive member of society, MOST of the people that will "benefit" from this bill may not share our work ethics. I do appologize if you really were that stung by my comments, but how can someone who believes in standing on her own two feet believe in bankrupting the rest of us so others who may not share our work ethic can get coverage and usher in yet another wave of gov't oppression in this country?
I still have a lot of years of hard work to go before i retire, and as taxes keep rising and rising and the lazy keep getting handouts from my hard earned money, the more frustrating it is to see bills like this passed :(
So Bea, your in the health food business huh? Well, I tip my hat and my cool ranch dorito's to you :)
Posted by Tim Howe on March 24, 2010 - 8:39pm
\I do appologize if you really were that stung by my comments,
Accepted.
but how can someone who believes in standing on her own two feet believe in bankrupting the rest of us so others who may not share our work ethic can get coverage and usher in yet another wave of gov't oppression in this country?
There are children not getting the medication they need to live (I used to work in pharmaceutical R&D, and another time I'll go into orphan drugs), are they the lazy people with no work ethic? They may not live to acquire a work ethic. There are people, for whatever reason, are part of the working poor who will benefit from this bill and from our own compassion.
Chris has stated the benefit to the small business owner.
I still have a lot of years of hard work to go before i retire, and as taxes keep rising and rising and the lazy keep getting handouts from my hard earned money, the more frustrating it is to see bills like this passed :(
Do you know of anyone, first hand, who was dealt an overwhelming burden that needed help? Perhaps if you had you wouldn't be so quick to say that YOUR hard earned money shouldn't help them.
So Bea, your in the health food business huh? Well, I tip my hat and my cool ranch dorito's to you :)
I'm not in the health food business. I'm in the business of providing a service to senior citizens who live on a limited income. Yes, we have cool ranch doritos and Kutter's Cheese and juice, water, and soda along with other treats they enjoy.
The labeling of someone who may not agree with your politics is so wrong on so many levels. I am a progressive, I lean toward the liberal but I am far from lazy and worthless!
“My personal beliefs are that you of all people (your age group that is) are the ONLY people in this country that should be taken care of by the gov't.”
You may find a stroll through the NY State School for the Blind enlightening.
Adama, I am not a "Rush" listener. If you really read my posts, you would know that I am a proponenet of people researching for themselves and not relying the media for their take on important issues. I know that the media lies, and even Fox news, Rush and other right leaning outlets only feed you what they want you to hear. Everything I have quoted came directly the actual bill and the IRS agent figure came directly from a report by the Ways and Means Committee. Have you read the bill?
Adama...I have been reading the bill since it was posted online. While I haven't seen a specific number (15,000)of IRS agents to be added, it does seem reasonable to assume that more will be needed to handle health care compliance issues.
Now Bea.....Don't go pimping children out to tug at our heart strings and try to put a good face on this bill like Obama did the other day when he signed this bill into law and had that child standing next to him dressed just like him with the same color tie looking like obama jr. *tisk* *tisk*
Now are you honestly telling me that with all the socialistic programs we already have out there that these children of the poor or orphans that you speak of honestly could not get life saving medicine? I find that VERY hard to believe. If lazy people who dont want to work can go on public assistance with no questions asked, i am sure that same system will help the children.
I think taxes and cable tv should share one common denomonator. i know thats probally not a statement you hear everyday but hear me out....
I have always had a problem with the way cable tv was set up. They charge you one big fat riduculous price, and tell you that you are going to receive hundreds and hundreds of channels. Sounds great huh? Well 385 out of the 400 channels are junk to me. Why cant i get a list of channels with a price next to each one with a box for me to check so i only receive the channels i want and pay each month accordingly.
TBS .75 X
TNT .50 X
SPIKE .80 X
CBS 1.25 X
I wish we could do this with our tax dollars each year. How would you like your tax dollars spent?
Welfare
universal health care
DEFENSE X
wasteful gov't agency
another wasteful gov't agency
yet another wasteful gov't agency
This way WE THE PEOPLE who technically are supposed to be the ones in charge would truly have the freedoms we supposedly have to spend our tax dollars the way we see fit.
Another surprise I discovered while reading the bill, and I say surprise because I have not heard anyone or any news outlet mention it, is found in Division C: Public Health & Workforce Development, Title V-Other Provisions, Subtitle C- Food & Drug Administration which will require all chain restaurants (defined as 20 or more restaurants operating under the same name regardless of ownership structure) to include calorie content information for EVERY menu item on all menus/menu boards and nutritional information available upon request. At first glance I assumed this meant the big guys like McDonalds, etc...who already do this...until I realized that Pontillo's Pizzeria has 25 locations in Rochester, so they will be required to comply with this too.
Lets see if these Democrat business owners that claim the government (meaning us the taxpayers )are going to give them a 35% tax credit towards the employees health care as Chris put it..If in return give all the employee a raise or pocket the money,like those bailed out Wall Street bad guys..After all,they think this was great thing the Health Care bill..As the years go on we will find out what a money grab this was all about..To be forced by law to buy something that you don't want is wrong..Wait to you all see how much the states share of medicade will increase over the years..
Chris's response didn't really answer my question: How will this benefit me?
I have no employees. I hope that won't always be the case, but that is how it is now.
The best health care costs I can find for insurance are $700 per month. At this stage, that is very difficult to handle.
Plus, I still have to pay taxes, and it's hard to believe that this health care "reform" and the way things are going with government, my taxes won't go up.
Look at all the ads on the site. We're not doing poorly. I'm grateful for the community support, both in readers and advertisers. But we're not even close to getting rich. We could make a comfortable living. But I'm worried about the government wanting more and more and more.
I totally get the idea of helping out those without insurance. While I'm leery of a government grab for money to "redistribute wealth," I'm also quite aware that our health care system is majorly broken and needs to be fixed.
I've always believed that at some level "all have a right to health care" (however we might achieve that).
You can make the case to me that health care is a basic human right.
But I've yet to see how this bill doesn't make things worse rather than better, and how it will benefit me - or people like me -- people who might find a way to scrape together the money for health insurance, but find it a terrible burden.
And I'm worried that while our health insurance costs keeping going up, we're going to see higher taxes just so that "the uninsured poor" get covered. Nothing in this bill assures me that greedy insurance companies still won't find ways to increase costs.
I see nothing in what I've read to assure me that my health insurance costs won't keep going up at the same time my taxes keep going up.
This isn't about me, per se. That's just my perspective. I just think I'm not alone. The defenders of this bill keep painting the opponents as heartless bastards who don't care about the elderly and the children, but I still don't see how this benefits American society as a WHOLE.
Howard; won't small businesses be able to participate in "insurance pools" helping to give people like you group buying power?
Bea:"but I started working in 1954! I continued working, and paid taxes until I retired a year ago. Tim that is 51 years of laziness." Sorry to be the math police but that would be 55 years. Obviously, you're not lazy.
Adama: I don't usually agree with Jeff on much, but I will say he's no Rushie or mouth piece for any of the so-called pundits, he does his homework. Richard however............
..................................................
Tim Howe wrote:"If lazy people who dont want to work can go on public assistance with no questions asked,"
I'm no defender of the welfare system, but I don't think you can just walk in to wherever and say "I don't want to work, where do I sign up for welfare." I'm pretty sure you have to have a reason for not being able to work. No doubt, there are people scamming the system and lying about their condition. I'm just challenging the no questions asked part.
I have been reading the bill, yes all 2000 page of the enhance all inclusive package,and it does state the new role that the IRS will play. The amount has not been directly specific to 15,000 but it does call for an increase No Greater than 16500 new agents.
I don't listen to Rush. He's a windbag. I also don't just listen to the main line media. They only like to talk about the top 5 bullet points.
I can't speak for anyone other than myself. I use to believe that social programs were really effective. That they served a great purpose to help our poor, then I began to run businesses, including one here in town. What I saw made me start to really read up.
Every month I would see literally hundreds of people that would come in to purchase high ticket items in cash, then turn around and use food stamps to buy their kids candy bars. As I progressed in my career, the offenses got worse.
Dave, if this would a one off isolated incidient, I probably wound have never thought twice, but these behaviors are very wide spread. I have met so many people who are on services that are abled body and of sound mind. Needing help is one thing, being helpless is another.
I would go without anything and have for years, to make sure that my family was fed and cared for. So let me ask this? How can we change the standards? Why should a person who is on total government funding allowe to have ammenities like,Dish TV, Iphones, new laptops, big screen TVs and so on?
If the federal governmane can force me to pay for something with money that I made, why could it not tell people what to buy with money that we gave them?
Phil; Yeah I guess that's where my quandary lies, I know there are people much less fortunate than I. Be it physical or mental, some people just can't make it in society and I don't want to just throw them away. But, if they are just given everything how will they ever change their situation? Way back, many years ago after recently getting out of the service and trying to get started in a career, I had 3 small children under 5 years old. I wasn't making squat, my wife would work as a waitress at night after I got home because we couldn't afford day care/ baby sitter. DIdn't have health insurance either by the way. My infant son fell ill, we took him the emergency room and I paid the bill off 20 and 30 dollars at a time until paid. We qualified for food stamps and some assistance, I told my wife No, in no uncertain terms, in no way would I accept that. Looking back, my pride was not worth the risk I put my family in. We came through OK, and nothing has ever come easy, but I don't look down on people who aren't jack-asses like me. I should have just kept my head down and my mouth shut and stayed in the Navy for 20, but pride didn't let me do that either, which is why I was starting over at that point.
I bared my chest, only to point out that I know about going without many things to put food on the table and a roof over our head. I'll say that there are abuses, there are generations of people having children out of wedlock to avoid having to fend for themselves and just out right liars collecting government money. I don't know how to fix it Phil, but it's hard to tell someone who's living on food stamps to get off your butt when we see Wall St fat cats and Politicians' buddies getting Gov't bail outs, and not to mention the perks and pay the Politicians get. We need a total make over of our society. No more career Politicians and hand outs for already wealthy people, then maybe we can get people on the dole to take part.
Living on assistance or welfare or whatever it is called can't be only basic subsistence, because a lot of people truly cannot get out because of actual disabilities we can't punish them because of the scumbags. I guess better management is the key.
Sorry for the rambling.
Richard, if there was a Reagan-era boom, it missed you and I. The '80s recession- high inflation rates was tailed by the '90s recession of falling interest rates. Maybe the draft-beer prices at Kelly's saloon made you feel like a millionaire.
I understand completely where you are coming from. I came from a very poor family as well and had little to nothing as I was coming up. My mother was an alcoholic, my father a gambler. I have earned everything in my life since I was thirteen years old.
My problem Dave isn't that there are people in this world that need help from time to time, but rather that people can stay on it with little to no consequence. Further, the system is designed to keep you on it. If you start making too much money they take your benefits away and usually that is enough for them to go back.
I am not without compassion to those in need, but an economic line based on income in the sand, is a joke. I don't hold any person is a scornful regard, but I also don't look at people who have more than me and have envy either. If I want more for my life then it is up to myself and myslef alone to do something about that.
We live in a country, for now anyway, where you can really achieve any height in any way you want if you take the time, energy, desire and focus that is needed. Coming from a poor, abusive, irresponsible or otherwise bad background can not be an excuse to sit by and do nothing.
As far as the Navy thing, I don't blame you a bit. One term in the Army was good enough for me!
WE had already agreed months ago to no longer dialogue with each other because our intechanges became so nasty. can't you respect that sir? i'm sure the other members of this site can speak for themselves in a dialogue with me & that they don't need you to do it for them. once again, i respectfully ask that you please refrain from contacting or adressing me on THE BATAVIAN as well as refrain from inserting yourself in my conversations with other member(s).
Phil; "We live in a country, for now anyway, where you can really achieve any height in any way you want if you take the time, energy, desire and focus that is needed. Coming from a poor, abusive, irresponsible or otherwise bad background can not be an excuse to sit by and do nothing."
I hear you, I had the benefit of wonderful parents who taught me right from wrong, and I did my best to pass that along to my children and they are doing great. You had to have a lot more mental toughness than most. I've got to point out that the time, energy, focus and desire today needs to be a hell of a lot stronger than it was 30 years ago. Too many people become parents without much of an example to base it on. Everyone isn't as tough-minded as you. I'd like to say I don't have scorn for people who can't seem to break out of their situations, truth is I do have disdain. I work on it every day. I am a Christian, not a very good one but I keep trying to follow the teachings of Jesus and have compassion and not be so judgmental. It's tough when added to the daily burdens we all deal with. Anyway.........I'll stop boring everyone.
It's hard sometimes to forgive. Just remember to dislike the sin and not the sinner! I believe that people are fundmentally good, but just don't know how to get out of their own way.
Don't beat yourself up, I get annoyed way too much more than I should also! It's just those darn pesky principles!
If the federal governmane can force me to pay for something with money that I made, why could it not tell people what to buy with money that we gave them?
Phil, I think that is the smartest post so far in this thread, and i have used pretty much that EXACT question for years when debating others about welfare.
Picture it...early 90's my best friend got one of his first jobs at Jubilee as a cashier. He would tell me horror storys ALL THE TIME about "Welly's" coming through his line with cigarettes and beer and trying to pay for them with food stamps. When my friend would tell them in a calm and respective way that food stamps do not cover such items, those Welly's would absolutely flip out on him in a very LOUD, OBNOXIOUS, RUDE way. Now i know not every Welly is an abrasive abuser of the system, but i would be willing to bet that more of them ARE than ARE NOT.
Also Phil, i want to give you an opportunity for a cheap plug here.....What business in town do you own?
Ha! Thanks Tim! I love me some plugs! I own a small software company called Slice Apps. I also have a website that disucusses business and mangement: www.theworldbyphil.com.
I ran the K-mart though for years. :-) Thanks for the compliment! Too bad I had a brain fart when I was typing government!
I'm a sucker for irony. Most have a hobby of sorts- mine is identifying irony. I don't recall EVER seeing a federal policy debate on this site comparable to the weeks-long exchanges over health care reform.
Our taxes fund government spending on any number of things. I recall reading about DOD paying $750 for hammers and likewise ridiculous prices for toilet seats and washers... The susceptibility of burocracy to victimization by unscrupulous vendors is not the issue.
Our taxes have been funding military activities in Iraq and Afghanistan for decades. The Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979. Throughout the 1980s we supported the Mujahideen resistance. The Iraq/Iran war sparked in 1980. Throughout the 1980s we supported Saddam Hussein. Bush I sent troops to defend Kuwait in 1990. Bush II invaded Iraq in 2003. U.S. began air strikes on Afghan-Taliban positions in 2001.
U.S. casualties in Iraq, 2003 - current, are approximately 5,000 dead and 30,000 wounded. Since 2001, the cost of the Iraq military action is $714,006,811,000; cost of the Afghanistan action is $261,657,352,000.
Regardless of motivation: retaliation for 9/11, WMD, Iraqi independence, energy security, world peace or Russian gas pipelines- does the destabilization of global economic and political alignment warrant such expenditure?
War and health care reform may seem like apples and oranges. If I had to choose between spending (wasting) MY money on one or the other- I'd buy health care NOT death and destruction.
C.M. you wrote: Regardless of motivation: retaliation for 9/11, WMD, Iraqi independence, energy security, world peace or Russian gas pipelines- does the destabilization of global economic and political alignment warrant such expenditure?"
No one will "be better off".
No one will "be better off". People need to realize that the health care reform legislation isn't about health care - its mostly about social engineering and government control. This is the largest redistribution of wealth legislation that has ever been imposed on our society.
How does the health care
How does the health care reform law re-distribute wealth? The only ones making money on this will be insurance companies and doctors, they are already wealthy.
same old tired right wing GOP
same old tired right wing GOP hysterical taliking points promoting the politics of fear & misinformation. i & my entire family will be better off. we have carefully researched the matter. who are you to speak for us?
I know that my family will be
I know that my family will be better off. I have a 22 year old part time college student/part time nanny. She will benefit immediately because with her part time college status she is not covered under our insurance.
My parents and my mother-in-law will also benefit immediately. The doughnut hole is eliminated which will mean a rebate for prescription drugs and the doughnut hole goes away for ever.
I also like that the insurance companies will have to give us 80% of those health care premiums in actual health care. Rebates will be given for the money not spent on care but paid in premiums. Insurance companies still make a profit, but people also get their monies worth.
I guess the NY times is now a
I guess the NY times is now a radical right wing newspaper spreading hysterical fear.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36013261/ns/politics-the_new_york_times
Dave, When you tax people and
Dave,
When you tax people and businesses to give the money to other people to buy something, that is redistribution of wealth. You might call it paying their fair share, but who are you to judge what is their fair share?
And we already do it for Social Security and other social programs, right? There is no real money in an SS account that has the name "Dave Olsen" on it. When you start to collect Social Security, somebody will be taxed to give it to you. That is redistribution. Your money was already spent. When you get your SS statement every year, it only tells you how much you paid in and projected payment in the future. It does not say you have any money.
And you might be better off getting some body's money to pay your medical expenses. But the person who has his money taken away to give it to you has a right to object, just as you have a right to say he should have to give it to you as his fair share.
Nancy Pelosi said that we
Nancy Pelosi said that we needed to pass the bill so that the American public can see what is in it. Now it is passed, so let's see what's in it.
The Federal government will now take over the lending portion of Student Loans from the banking industry. This will mean job cuts in the private sector and more government jobs to run the actual lending while at the same time exposing the lending risk to taxpayer money as opposed to the banks money.
The healthcare bill provides for the hiring of 15,000 to 16,000 new IRS agents. Why is that? Could it be that taxation will be the main source of funding and not steamlining of services?
Dave asks "How does the health care reform law re-distribute wealth?" Well I'm glad you asked because I was actually reading some of the bill(why I torture myself, I don't know) and I started out near the end as opposed to the beginning since most people would simply give up after a while. The bill is actually a re-introduction of Affirmative Action and here are some quotes from it:
Pg. 878 SEC. 2213. TRAINING IN FAMILY MEDICINE, GENERAL INTERNAL MEDICINE, GENERAL PEDIATRICS, GERIATRICS, AND PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTSHIP. Provided through federal grants and contracts. PREFERENCE.—“In awarding grants or contracts under this section, the Secretary shall give preference to entities that have a demonstrated record of the following: Training individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups or disadvantaged backgrounds.”
Pg. 909 SEC. 765. ENHANCING THE PUBLIC HEALTH WORKFORCE. Provided through federal grants and contracts. PREFERENCE.—“In awarding grants or contracts under this section, the Secretary shall give preference to entities that have a demonstrated record of the following: Training individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups or disadvantaged backgrounds.”
Pg. 883 SEC. 748. TRAINING OF MEDICAL RESIDENTS IN COMMUNITY-BASED SETTINGS. Provided through federal grants and contracts. PREFERENCE.—“In awarding grants or contracts under this section, the Secretary shall give preference to entities that have a demonstrated record of the following: Training individuals who are from underrepresented minority groups or disadvantaged backgrounds.”
Labor unions are mentioned liberally in the bill and here is just one example:
Pg. 1009 provide grants for healthcare facilities to train new nurses and further training for existing nurses. Only unionized facilities qualify, and PREFERENCE.—In awarding grants under this section the Secretary shall give preference to programs that “provide for improving the diversity of the new nurse graduates to reflect changes in the demographics of the patient population”...not even sure what that means, are we going to be hiring senior citizen nurses?
This was the biggest and most expensive shell game perpetrated on the American public and we only now will be getting to see what is under the remaining shell.
Sure, John, and it's the same
Sure, John, and it's the same method that's been used for 234 years in America. We didn't always use a progressive income tax but taxes have always been there.
You and your ilk act like the Democrats are reinventing the way our government takes in money.
NO Chris the Democrats are
NO Chris the Democrats are reinventing the amount of money the federal government controls, who they take it from and who has to beg them to get it.
If one disqualifies
If one disqualifies empowerment of the disadvantaged as a legitimate role of government, there is no point of government, especially in a nation like ours- dedicated to preserving the minority voice and extending basic rights to "all men." Maybe that's the quest for those who challenge the right to health care and pensions as deserved only by those who can afford such luxuries.
Every business of government requires redistribution of wealth. That's how government works. Citizens are taxed; governments rule. There is an assumed quid pro quo, but the payoff for the rich is generally less tangible-more heart-warming than the payoff for the poor. Government could slip back a millenium to some feudal system that provides more stoic class-divisions. Perhaps those worried about depriving the ruling class would be gratified by the justice of whips, pillories and plague.
NO Richard, they are simply
NO Richard, they are simply taking a few more points from the very wealthy instead of taking it from the poor and middle class, see: Bush Tax Cuts.
Every time we have a Republican president poor folks and the middle class are beaten into submission and told that only the very wealthy deserve what they have and on top of it, we should happily continue paying our share of taxes so those wealthy few can have a tax cut.
You see, Republicans don't cut taxes. They say they will and they whip their base into a frenzy by scapegoating minorities and poor people, but when they're given the reins all they do is hand out cash to their wealthy friends. Hate Democrats if you must, but at least we keep our promises. Barack Obama the candidate promised health care reform and Barack Obama the President of the United States elected by a vast majority of the citizenry DELIVERED ON HIS PROMISE Deal with it.
Chris, Taxes are necessary
Chris,
Taxes are necessary for many things. The best example nationally is national defence and locally, police protection.
But taxes levied fairly on all is not the same as income redistribution. And redistribution only started in the 1930's. In addition, many people are exempt now from paying taxes at all.
Some, like you, approve of the new entitlements taking more money from some to give to others, again.
Chris, This November will
Chris,
This November will tell us if you are right.
Democrats in Erie County will tell us who is running against Chris Lee for Congress (Genesee County is too small to have a real say in either party). And you are looking now for somebody to run against Steve Hawley for the State Assembly.
If Democrats win either race, you prove your point. If they don't, we prove our point.
John, are you suggesting that
John, are you suggesting that taxes based on a percentage of income are less fair than identical dollar amounts? Bill Gates and I should both have a $5,000 annual tax bill?
The liberal vision is, that
The liberal vision is, that the individual needs to be controlled, that his aspirations need to be limited, that he has to learn to get along and go along. And that if that means dispiriting the individual, if that means economic or other forms of repression, then so be it for the good of the general society. And that a handful of individuals, self-appointed, who assume power one way or another, they will make the decisions for all the rest of us. In one form or another, that’s what Obama and the rest of the kool aid drinking statists believes.
Where did you find that
Where did you find that drivel, Richard? If it were true, there would be no liberals. Obama wasn't self-appointed; he was elected.
Ok John, Jeff and Richard, I
Ok John, Jeff and Richard, I take your point about taxing or collecting from all and the government controlling where it gets spent. By the way I never said whether I feel better off or not with this law, I just asked a question. Actually, I don't much like being forced to do anything, but what are you going to do? torture yourself like Jeff said. I'm beat down pretty good.
C.M. he plagiarized it from
C.M. he plagiarized it from Mark Levin's book, 'Liberty and Tyranny.' Not that he read the book, he probably just copy/pasted it from one of the right wing websites he likes to steal from.
Excellent point, and
Excellent point, and presented well.
Unbelievable. It saddens me
Unbelievable. It saddens me that in this politically correct environment, even the republican opponents never even mentioned this. We're further "down the tubes" than I thought.
C.M. makes another good point
C.M. makes another good point here. The teabaggers, the birthers and other associated groups of morons seem to think that Obama somehow came to power without being voted into power. It's just that sort of ridiculous thinking that makes the members of that group who are tottering on the thin line of sanity shout vile epithets and throw bricks. They seem to think that their actions are justified and no one in their leadership is telling them that it's not OK.
Our Congressman, Chris Lee has refused to say publicly that violent and hateful actions by the teabagger crowd are not acceptable forms of behavior. It's this 'wink wink, nudge nudge', 'look the other way' attitude perpetuated by Republican leadership that is giving these nutbags their license to behave in the manner they are.
John, you don't know a damn
John, you don't know a damn thing about what the local Democratic Party is doing with regard to elections this November. I would appreciate it if you didn't attempt to make folks who frequent this website think that you do.
I'm still waiting for
I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me how I'm going to benefit from this.
I can't speak for John, CM,
I can't speak for John, CM, but here is what I would say to that. First let it be known that I out right loathe the income tax and felt it should have never been created, but I don't live in that world, so let's talk reality.
I believe that a flat tax is the only fair way to do this. Whether you make $10,000 or $10,000,000, you pay the same. It should not be the fault of the public, that government cannot prioritize and spend within those limits. The Federal government has over stepped in so many ways and have created too much for the populous to handle.
It is not an unreasonable question to pose for a flat tax. Yes some on the bottom will pay more and some on the top will pay, but the middle class as a whole would pay less, hence increasing discretionary income. It has been proven in this country time again, when people have more they buy more! That money then goes right back into the system and supports the state, county and local governments, which by the way are the ones who are dealing with problems first hand not these Washington politics.
It's a question of fairness. You might think it's reasonable for someone who has more to pay more, while I feel the very existence of the income tax and IRS is a constitutional mess. At the end of the day, we should be fair to everyone.
10% flat tax rate for all! Then you wouldn't need to pay the scores of people at the IRS to audit us all!
In torturing ourselves we
In torturing ourselves we learn the truth about legislation that our representatives foist on us hoping that we will never actually investigate it on our own. So here is more torture: directly from a report by the House Ways and Means Committee on the new powers given to the IRS by the Healthcare bill.
*IRS agents verify if you have “acceptable” health care coverage;
*IRS has the authority to fine you up to $2,250 or 2 percent of your income (whichever is greater) for failure to prove that you have purchased “minimum essential coverage”;
*IRS can confiscate your tax refund;
*IRS audits are likely to increase;
*IRS will need up to $10 billion to administer the new health care program this decade;
*IRS may need to hire as many as 16,500 additional auditors, agents and other employees to investigate and collect billions in new taxes from Americans; and
*Nearly half of all these new individual mandate taxes will be paid by Americans earning
less than 300 percent of poverty ($66,150 for a family of four). (that's less than $250,000, my input)
Exemptions from the penalties?
"legislation specifically would exempt two groups of people from the IMT(Individual Mandate Tax): illegal aliens and incarcerated individuals."
Should I keep going, or does everyone just want to believe what they here from the people pushing this stuff through on talking points with the aid of Katie Couric, Brian Williams, Chris Matthews, Rachel Maddow, etc.
The legislation and supporting documents are out there now for public viewing, get involved, educate yourselves and vote accordingly.
Howard, just look at all the
Howard, just look at all the traffic your site is getting. that's how your benefiting
Good job Chris promoting
Good job Chris promoting Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto" couldn't be more relevant or important for you and your socialist brethren to read.
Ok Jeff, so you educate
Ok Jeff, so you educate yourself, find a candidate that supports your point of view and maybe even volunteer to help him (or her) campaign. Then when election day comes, people either just vote party line, the guy they'd rather have a beer with, or a name they recognize. The reason our representatives foist laws on us and hope noone investigates, is because that's what happens. Very few people have any clue about this new law or any other for that matter. I'm going to focus on making more money so I can pay my taxes like a good peasant.
Chris, plaese don't feign
Chris, plaese don't feign outrage at a brick through a window and a few slurs by a couple of morons when we watched 8 years of hate-filled anti-Bush signs, Bush effigies hung by ropes and burned, and more recently Anti-Right lunatics shooting co-workers in Alabama, guards at the Pentagon and flying a plane into an IRS office with no condemnation from the left, in fact the left passed them off as right-wing despite there clear evidence of the opposite. There are extreme fringe elements on both sides and it all should be condemned.
Dave you say "Very few people
Dave you say "Very few people have any clue about this new law or any other for that matter. I'm going to focus on making more money so I can pay my taxes like a good peasant." That is exactly why we are in this mess.
You're not Howard, but the
You're not Howard, but the good news is because you don't make enough money in your business, you won't be forced to pay for insurance for your staff! Oh wait...you don't have staff...and you still need insurance yourself or you'll be fined...oh well I tried!
Joking aside, I have been reading this bill as well. There are so many things in here that will not help anyone except the government. I understand that this was a tough problem, but these measures are garbage! I know that everyone wants to be happy for this historical bill, but I'm not buying yet.
I'm not feigning anything
I'm not feigning anything Jeff and I take serious offense to your statement that I am.
It is unacceptable to threaten the life of an American President no matter how much you hate him/her. It is also unacceptable shout hateful epithets at, vandalize the property of and physically attack members of Congress, no matter what their political affiliation..
I keep hearing Republican mouthpieces call these 'isolated incidents' but here's a grammatical point for you: An 'incident' can be isolated, but 'incidents' cannot. You see, 'isolated' suggests a singular happening, so to use the plural 'incidents' one is admitting that there is more than one, or even many happenings.
A singular incident of the behavior we've seen is wholly unacceptable, but for these attacks (physical, verbal and otherwise) to be happening at the rate they are all the while being supported or ignored by elected members of the Republican party is unconscionable.
I think the reason that there
I think the reason that there hasn't been instant condemnation is that there has been no supporting evidence or corroboration. Several videos from multiple angles have not been able to support the allegations by video or audio. At this point they are merely allegations, however it is a decent attempt at a diversion from the point. I have not engaged in talking points, but have presented evidence from the actual bill and other government documents, yet no one is debating the merits or dismerits of it on anything other than what has been reported by the media or on pre-existing partisan ideals. Like Howard said, "I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me how I'm going to benefit from this."
Jeff, do you think there was
Jeff, do you think there was no supporting evidence of the brick thrown through Louise Slaughter's office? How about the assassination threats she and her family received? Are you accusing John Lewis and Barney Frank of lying?
You're completely unwilling to believe that people are doing these things and that concerns me. The perpetrators of these attacks are casting an un-washable stain on the Republican party and the good people in it. This isn't about taxes to these animals, it's about their own bigotry and hatred. Their actions are drowning out the reasonable voices inside the Republican Party and Republican leadership is allowing them to do so. This won't end until these people are condemned and outcast or until somebody gets seriously hurt or killed. Which would you prefer?
Rock on Jeff! No one wants to
Rock on Jeff! No one wants to talk about these things beacause there is no answer. It's a law now, instead "we" just want to focus on the top 20 bullet points that would have been in there regardless of which party wrote it.
Rich, I can hear the gears in
Rich, I can hear the gears in your head grinding all the way up here in sunny Batavia. You keep trying there kiddo, I'm sure you'll get one up on me someday.
Here's a hint: All I do is Google the first line of every post you make that sounds like it was written by somebody smarter than you. I haven't been wrong yet.
Yeah just think of all the
Yeah just think of all the time I make you waste your like a puppet on a string for both me and obama.
Doing the due diligence isn't
Doing the due diligence isn't a waste of time, it's the right thing to do. Isn't it time for you to kneel before your statue of Ronald Reagan and burn your offerings?
Jeff, I've having this
Jeff, I've having this discussion for over 30 years. The only differences in my life or the lives of my family have been made by our personal efforts and hard work, not by trying to get people to pay attention and take responsibility for our government. Not even bitching about our elected representatives and writing letters does any good, admittedly I can't stop myself but at least I know it's futile. Helps me feel a little better. Besides, if I don't earn enough to pay my obligations, who will? The government? Not me.
Phil, I agree with you, a
Phil,
I agree with you, a flat tax.
I have been reading the
I have been reading the health care bill since it was available on-line so that I could decide for myself who was lying, who was telling the truth and what my stand would be.
There is no dispute that some folks will feel that they are “better off” with the immediate short-term benefits of the health care reform bill. It’s the same feeling you get when you buy a new vehicle…it solves your immediate need for safe and reliable transportation; so you tend to overlook some of the undesirable long-term outcomes: costly repairs, increased auto insurance rates and that pesky little check engine light.
The health care debate is now focused on the long-term implications of the bill. Do we really want more government entitlements that will only serve to discourage people from trying to improve their standard of living through hard work and sacrifice? Too many Americans have become either complacent with being on welfare….or worse- “poor by design”- to stay on welfare.
Case in point: an acquaintance of mine receives several government entitlements: food stamps, child care subsidy, housing subsidy, free health care already and most recently a government sponsored low-interest car loan. She also received an $8000 Earned Income Credit windfall; which she used to take her family on an expensive vacation and various shopping sprees---totally legal and paid for by our tax dollars! I should also mention that she refuses to work over a certain number of hours (underemployed-by-choice) so that she can maintain her poverty level status.
The system should always have a safety net for those that are truly poor or have suffered a temporary setback and need a hand up. But let’s get real…when it gets to the point that government is subsidizing vacations for the so-called poor… something is seriously wrong.
Here ya go Chris have
Here ya go Chris have fun:
President Ronald Reagan's record includes sweeping economic reforms and deep across-the-board tax cuts, market deregulation, and sound monetary policies to contain inflation. His policies resulted in the largest peacetime economic boom in American history and nearly 35 million more jobs. As the Joint Economic Committee reported in April 2000:2
In 1981, newly elected President Ronald Reagan refocused fiscal policy on the long run. He proposed, and Congress passed, sharp cuts in marginal tax rates. The cuts increased incentives to work and stimulated growth. These were funda-mental policy changes that provided the foundation for the Great Expansion that began in December 1982.
Next assignment will be due tomorrow at 8:00 AM.
I seem to remember a brick
I seem to remember a brick being thrown through another office window and the investigation revealed it was actually done by a supporter and then blamed on the protesters. Are Lewis and Franks lying? I don't know, but I do know the difference between an allegation and actuality. But again, none of that debates the content of the bill.
You may notice a couple of
You may notice a couple of comments disappeared.
No personal attacks.
Phil, actually you get my
Phil, actually you get my point very well.
But it's not just about me. There plenty of small business people all around the country who could use relief from sky rocking health care costs.
So I'm just trying to figure out how this is really going to help people who are trying to do good work, makes end meet and do the right thing?
The burnt offering to Ronald
The burnt offering to Ronald Reagan comment is very funny Chris, I think some people actually do that. William O Douglas quote: "Since when have we Americans been expected to bow submissively to authority and speak with awe and reverence to those who represent us? "
Howard Barney Frank is openly
Howard Barney Frank is openly gay statement of fact not a personal attack.
Reagan put all of that on the
Reagan put all of that on the national credit card Rich. Talk about your kids having to pay for your programs.
Howard, depending on our staffing levels, our business will probably qualify for a 35% tax credit for our healthcare costs. We have always paid 100% of our covered employees health insurance and every December/January in recent memory I have agonized over whether or not we'll be able to afford to continue that practice. This year, I won't even have to think about it because even after covering the part time folks we'll be spending less overall. Not a bad deal.
By the way, how did that
By the way, how did that market deregulation work out for ya?
The Reagan's free market
The Reagan's free market policies helped create the largest peacetime economic boom in American history.
JoAnne, Spot on! Howard,
JoAnne, Spot on!
Howard, That's exactly right.
The Reagan's free market
The Reagan's free market policies helped create the largest peacetime economic boom in American history....
as well as the largest economic downturn since the great depression.
I finished that thought for you Rich, i wasn't sure if your keyboard batteries died or you had a power outage. :)
I'll be fair here as well, since I wouldn't want to be accused of simply going after Republicans. Bill Clinton reinstated some of Reagans market deregulations that had been repealed by Bush the First, so the country didn't get to feel the full force of Reagan's folly until much later.
My, My, My We are in for a
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/M0_L3cLhrzA&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/M0_L3cLhrzA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
My, My, My We are in for a Rude Awakening...
While I support the Prezzz, In my opinion this was a Big Mistake. We are soon, going to have a mess on our hands, in hospitals, doctors offices, red tape, and paperwork. It will be as big of a disaster as Canada's Healthcare. You will wait longer for care, the quality of care will suffer, and the pharmicutical companies will make a killing. Our elderly will be pumped full of pills, for this and that, just for the profit. We are Doomed..
Ronald Reagan didn't cut
Ronald Reagan didn't cut taxes but for 1 year, Richard... the economy immediately tanked, and he subsequently raised taxes in each successive year of his presidency... including the single largest tax increase in the history of America ever, the Payroll Tax. Then the single largest energy tax increase in American history the year after he did that - increasing the total tax burden on all Americans. And he did this all with a GOP majority in the Senate and the GOP-Dixiecrat coalition in the House.
When the Democrats finally retook the Senate in 1986, the national debt had doubled, the Savings & Loan Crisis had occured and the entire financial system was nearly wrecked. GDP, Production, Jobs and Revenues all plummeted during these 6 years. And the one and only Bob Dole led the charge from the GOP to help them succeed in reversing all of this by raising taxes, which only succeeded after the total tax increases were larger than the total tax cuts implemented.
And the largest, and longest, peacetime economic boom was in the 90s... When Bill Clinton was President, and taxes were raised.
Do you want to attempt to try and pretend that he won the Cold War too...?
Chris...if you agonized over
Chris...if you agonized over whether or not you would be able to continue health care coverage for your employees in the past, I assume that it was because of business conditions. As a business owner you had a choice on whether to continue the practise. Does it concern you at all that those same business conditions may re-appear and even with the tax breaks you won't be able to afford health care coverage for your employees?...only this time you won't have the option to decline.
We never agonized over
We never agonized over whether or not to provide the coverage, that was always a given. The question was whether or not we should continue to pay 100%. Our covered employees have never had to pay a dime for their health insurance outside of their co-pays, we even cover the hospitalization copay, should the need arise. This legislation will save us tens of thousands of dollars annually.
Thanks Phil...would you
Thanks Phil...would you believe that I was de-friended on facebook by a relative who didn't like my opinion. If this issue can't be discussed openly and rationally, then this country has bigger problems than health care.
I don't Tony, but I don't
I don't Tony, but I don't think anyone should take pride that the only way this country can survive is by constantly increasing taxes, so more programs can be created.
I think it's just sad that anyone on here would boast about taking more money from people. Taxes will continue to rise because this government is taking over our daily lives. Every year there are hundreds of new bills that tell us what we can and can't do.
Do you want lower taxes? Then stop spending money! This silly need to keep creating programs to solve problems doesn't work. It only creates more problems that we then have to reform. Those reforms become a new set of problems in which we amend and so on and so on.
There are at least two dozen things that Jeff and I have mentioned that will end up hurting so many people. This back and forth over which president did what is pointless. Reagan screwed up, both Bush's screwed up, Clinton screwed up and now Obama has screwed up.
You call this mosterous piece, success? I have been reading it for a day and I know that a large quantity is garbage. Get over your little "Party War" and read this Bill! I challenge any Democrat to read it.Stop reading bullet points. For the Republicans, stop your damn griping, you have made our country a mess as well!
You aren't kidding JoAnne!
You aren't kidding JoAnne! That's ok, you can friend me on Facebook! :-)
Richard plagarizes constantly
Richard plagarizes constantly in an effort to lead us to believe that he has original thoughts.
try;
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/47682
Tony and Chris are in denial
Tony and Chris are in denial Reagan's policies saved this country from where California, NY and NJ are now broke form social programs. Let's see-how much has the national debt increased under Obama? What is unemployment under Obama? um GDP? don't worry at least the crack heads and the rest of the riff raff will get free health care now.
Bea I plagerize to give you
Bea I plagerize to give you and chris something to do with your lives so you can feel more important than you are.
Phil - Maybe. But I think
Phil - Maybe. But I think the most important thing to note is that the government is itself a very strong economic player. Government spends money, government invests money, government loans money. They are integral to the economy. For example, the student loan thing in the reconciliation that will certainly draw ire-- where the government gets to pick and choose who can grant student loans? The most common student loan, one which I have quite the tally in, is the Stafford Loan. It used to be called the "Federal Guaranteed Student Loan." Now, with banks failing left and right as a result of their over reaching and over playing their hand in real estate and high-risk markets, is it not in their best interest to protect their investment and ensure they get their money back instead of auctioning off the funds?
I would assume Chris that
I would assume Chris that puts your business in the less than 25 employees earning an average of less than $40,000. That is who qualifies for the 35% tax credit. Now first of all, let me commend you for providing health coverage for your employees, that is being a responsible employer and you should be given credit fro doing so. Full benefit of the tax credit assumes that your business has income of less than $250,000 annually and that healthcare costs remain flat. The latter is has yet to be explained when no real tort reform was included, no real cross state competition, and the addition of 32 million people many of whom will be immediately upside down in their coverage(payouts for pre-existing conditions and high risk behaviors far exceeding the premiums).
I didn't realize you had such
I didn't realize you had such high-quality psychotropic drugs down there in Texas, Rich.
Given, the unemployment rate isn't where it needs to be, but that problem has spanned two administrations. We'll see what happens when spring comes and the construction companies around the country start hiring.
I think you may be a bit surprised if you look at the eebt increase as a percentage value instead of in raw dollars. After all, the inflation caused by Reagan's economic policies made the 'value' of the dollar what it is today.
Chris, correct me if I am
Chris, correct me if I am wrong here...you never agonized over your decision each year to continue coverage for full-time employees because it was based mainly on your business philosophy to do right by your employees and economics only determined how much? My question to you is...what percentage of your decision to NOT cover part time employees in the past was based on philosophy and what part was economics? And again I ask you...aren't you concerned that mandated coverage for your employees, even with the tax breaks, might some day not SAVE you tens of thousands of dollars annually, but jeopardize your your business?
Jeff, remember that $250,000
Jeff, remember that $250,000 is net, not gross. What we get in tax credits is going to depend on our part-time staffing. Our full time staffing level is pretty static. Even if we only qualify for a partial credit, we're going to save a pile of money.
For the record, we agree on reasonable tort reform and buying across state lines. Tort reform should have been easy (relative to the rest of the bill) but the state line thing would have been complicated due to different states having different governing rules about operating an insurance company, corporate taxes and so on. I think it would have been very difficult for the Federal government to do something like that without stepping all over state's rights.
Actually, Richard... you are
Actually, Richard... you are in denial of Reagan's actual legacy. He wasn't terribly popular until the mid-90s when he announced he had Alzheimer's, then all of a sudden people had all kinds of fond memories.
Meanwhile, in reality, he sat idly by as Charlie Wilson armed the Afghans with the very weapons they use to harm our soldiers today. He negotiated with terrorists to sell arms to Hezbollah to achieve the release of hostages, a group that Terry Anderson was among, but not released as part of the deal. The money from selling these arms to Hezbollah were then diverted to the Contras in Nicaragua. To further fund those Contras, he allowed Manuel Noriega, the military dictator of Panama, to lead the largest Cocaine smuggling ring ever to pollute our streets with the drug. All this, and he still almost started World War 3 on several occassions.
Reagan saved something alright... he saved Richard Nixon's legacy from being known as the most corrupt President ever. For some reason I can't figure out, the Republican Party wants more Reagan... but what they really need is more Eisenhower.
No, JoAnne, I'm not and
No, JoAnne, I'm not and here's why. Our company doesn't fall under the mandate because we have less than 25 employees. I'm tempted to discuss the other end of the equation which has to do with net profits, but I have to draw the line at discussing the specifics of company finances.
I'll say this though, I know that this legislation will benefit our business. I can't say with any surety that it will benefit every business in the country, but for businesses like ours it's going to help.
And all Clinton did is leave
And all Clinton did is leave a stain.
Richard, I think you meant it
Richard, I think you meant it as an attack, and I think it was triggered a couple of other comments.
Also, if you don't want to get accused of plagiarism, provide links to your source material.
"Even if we only qualify for
"Even if we only qualify for a partial credit, we're going to save a pile of money." Chris, I honestly hope you are correct, because it is businesses like yours that are the backbone of our economy. As you flourish, so does America. I do have my doubts that you will see the pile of money you've been led to believe is waiting for you. I truly hope I am wrong.
Howard if I do that Bea and
Howard if I do that Bea and Chris will get terribly bored and will never use their favorite search engine then the economy will fall apart because google's stock price will plummet-not to mention what will happen to your number of clicks.
Thank you Jeff. I'm
Thank you Jeff. I'm confident that the bill will be a boon to us and, like all locally owned and operated businesses, we'll make sure that money finds its way back into the local economy.
I would love to continue with
I would love to continue with this lively debate, but I have to leave for work so that I can stay above the poverty level the old fashioned American way...hard work and perseverence.
Richard, it's the right thing
Richard, it's the right thing to do. The sources deserve credit and the links, and the readers deserve a chance to click through and see if a writer is quoting in context. Standard Web etiquette.
True, Richard's penchant for
True, Richard's penchant for being ridiculous is driving your traffic Howard. Maybe you should send him a free T-Shirt.
Per Rep. John Dingle (D-MI)
Per Rep. John Dingle (D-MI) yesterday, we'll all be better off.
"Let me remind you this [Americans allegedly dying because of lack of universal health care] has been going on for years. We are bringing it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you're going to pass legislation that will cover 300 [million] American people in different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people."
He was being interviewed by Paul Smith of WJR Radio and responded to a question about why the the legislation was being implemented over several years.
Kevin, I do hope you were
Kevin, I do hope you were posting that to point out the last part of his quote "...it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people." ...to control the people? I know it's not a misprint because I heard the interview.
Tony, that reason is no more
Tony, that reason is no more than a symptom of the problem. There was a point in time when working for the government was an undesirable job. There were not a lot of them and private enterprise is what was the basis for our economy.
Now in almost every single county, state and yes the country government is the #1 employer. So yes, you are right to say that the government is a very strong economic player, but that isn't a good thing. The government keeps getting stronger off the creation of more and more programs that need more money to fund and run.
I understand your example, but the point is why are they in that business at all? Student tuition has continued to increase at an alarming rate. The biggest reason that state schools have, is the decrease in public funding. So we over tax, cut funding support and then make you borrow from us to go!
Horrible.
Here is another whopper of
Here is another whopper of bureaucratic waste... Pg. 502 the establishment of "THE CENTER FOR COMPARATIVE EFFECTIVENESS RESEARCH" Purpose...conduct, support, and synthesize research relevant to the comparative effectiveness of the full spectrum of health care items, services and systems, including pharmaceuticals, medical devices, medical and surgical procedures, and other medical interventions;... Don't we already have people doing this through major universities and medical professional institutions? 22 pages just to outline this new uneccessary agency.
95 pages on new governemnt oversight of Nursing Homes.
15 pages on the establishment of "NATIONAL PRIORITIES FOR QUALITY IMPROVEMENT" including at minimum $2,000,000 annually just to figure out what we should spend the money on first.
We should split this monstrosity into sections and all take a crack at it. Remember this bill does not include the 246 Billion dollar "doc fix" which Pelosi and Reid assure us will be added later.
And the bill that Obama signed with all the pomp and circumstance yesterday, or as Joe calls it the "big f***ing deal", somehow the Executive Order used to buy off Stupak was signed in a closed door no media session. Hmmmmmmmm.
I do that with you Jeff!
I do that with you Jeff!
War, Insurance companies,
War, Insurance companies, Auto Makers, Mortgage lenders, Education lenders, Health care whats next?
It won't be long before there into our 401k's and 403b's. In a way they all ready are, printing more money only devalues them.
Everyone knows you can only build that house of cards so high before history does repeat it self. I hate to think stock piling food, water, silver, gold, and lead will be the best investment for our kids future.
Perhaps this will help us
Perhaps this will help us understand how this thing got by us.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kEe1nWxGb5s&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kEe1nWxGb5s&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
If I didnt love being a "21st
If I didnt love being a "21st century guy" so much, with all my electronics, i think this would be the perfect time to become AMISH.
I already have a strong faith in God, I positivalutely LOVE to work, and I believe that through hard work ONLY should a man or woman receive $$ to live on. Boy, oh boy do i not fit the bill of what OBAMA and the rest of the worthless, lazy liberals think this country should be made up of.
This country is in BIG trouble.....
That Jeff was awesome.
That Jeff was awesome.
Posted by Tim Howe on March
Posted by Tim Howe on March 24, 2010 - 5:36pm
....and the rest of the worthless, lazy liberals think this country should be made up of.
Yep, we are a worthless bunch. Not one of us worked a day in our lazy lives. Not one of us ever paid taxes or contributed to the society in which we live.
I don't know how old you are, Tim, but I started working in 1954! I continued working, and paid taxes until I retired a year ago. Tim that is 51 years of laziness.
51 years of being worthless, in your eyes. 51 years of contributing my share to the well being of our community.
I am one of those, worthless, lazy liberals who now, as retired, manages a successful volunteer snack shop that privides affordable and healthy snacks to senior citizens. I don't log the hours that I spend on that project, but it is almost the equivalent of a full time job.
In my spare time, this lazy, worthless liberal takes the time to provide senior citizens with a newsletter and monthly calendar outlining events (which, by the way, I chair the event committee)that take place in our senior community.
There are many of us worthless, lazy liberals who make a contribution to this earth on a daily basis.
You are painting many with a broad brush that I find insulting.
So, you don't want health care reform. Had the bill not passed, would you be sitting at your computer gloating that you "won" a victory for insurance companies to continue to gouge all of us? Would you be celebrating that those who have pre-existing conditions would not be covered? Is there a happy dance for those who contract a disease or are involved in an accident that causes their insurance companies to drop their coverage?
Bea...you are using the same
Bea...you are using the same broad brush that you accuse Tim of using...and I find that equally insulting. Just because I don't support THIS health care reform bill doesn't mean that I don't support health care reform. Do you really think that all of us that don't support this bill for some very valid reasons are doing a "happy dance" for those that contract a disease or are involved in an accident that causes their insurance companies to drop their coverage? I don't even know how to respond to that ridiculous statement.
JoAnne, not as ridiculous as
JoAnne, not as ridiculous as it sounds. You may want to make me sound ridiculous, but when Tim used that broad brush, I wondered why no one jumped in to let him know that not every liberal is worthless or lazy.
I did not paint everyone with a broad brush with my statement, I addressed it to Tim. Are you insulted for him?
Perhaps it is the liberal part of me who truly believes that most people in this world have compassion and have a good side to them. I don't care what their politics, they are my fellow citizens and together we make up this wonderful country. I don't believe that most on this board approve of the tactics we've witnessed in the past few days. The racial slurs, the bigotry, the threats and hatred are not part of my makeup and I don't believe it is part of most on this board.
THIS health care bill is long time coming, it has been in the works since Truman, for heaven's sake. The GOP claims that we still need time. How much more time? Have you ever witnessed the GOP, when in power, even addressing health care reform?
You may not see Tim's diatribe as insulting, and that is your choice. You may also see my questioning Tim regarding how he would be reacting if the bill had not passed as ridiculous, once again your choice.
But, I like you have the right to state an opinion without being made to feel foolish for not going into lockstep with the likes of Tim.
Chris...your explanation was
Chris...your explanation was clear and concise...thanks! I am glad to find that there is something in this bill that will help support locally owned and operated businesses. I hope it does save you a pile of money so that you can continue to support the local economy.
I believe this essay by Gary
I believe this essay by Gary North gives a pretty good idea where we're headed, and why.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north828.html
Jeff, you need to stop
Jeff, you need to stop getting your "news" from Rush Limbaugh and other people who lie to you. There is no new 15,000 IRS agents. Please read the bill. You'll find out that all the things the fearmongers told you are in there are, in fact, not.
And Richard, I hope like most people you eventually realize that that Ayn Rand style nonsense is, well, nonsense. The fact of the matter is that every day you're aided and protected by the government in the form of police, fire departments, product safety regulations, the laws that make it possible to broadcast TV, radio, and cell phone signals, public roads, public sanitation, clean water, vehicle crash testing, and on, and on.
You then go on to bash that same government for "limiting your freedom." Apparently that's the freedom to be bullied and controlled by unfair market manipulation, ala the 1800s when people worked 18 hour days for credit at the company store. Or the freedom to buy poisonous toys from China, and have your your children get sick because of it.
The myth that has been sold to people of "rugged individualism" and a "market free from government interference" is a figment of the same big-business people who benefit from having no controls on how they exploit their wealth. It's the fairy tale that if you just completely give over the reins to the billionaires, then one day you could be rich just like them. But all you have to do is look at the Wall Street bubbles to see how well a market free from "government interference" has worked for the last 10 years or so: You get credit default swaps, Bernie Madoff, Enron, Arthur Andersen, etcetera.
Adama wrote: "The myth that
Adama wrote:
"The myth that has been sold to people of "rugged individualism" and a "market free from government interference" is a figment of the same big-business people who benefit from having no controls on how they exploit their wealth."
Go tell that the owners of L.B. Grand that "market free from government interference" is a myth.
It is "my government right or wrong" that creates an environment where those types of things can happen.
Bea...perhaps you just read
Bea...perhaps you just read want you wanted to read into my post so that you could accuse me of trying to make you look ridiculous. I said your comment was EQUALLY insulting as Tim's. It sounds as though you are too busy looking for the "good" in people that you can't see the forest for the trees; so if you feel foolish...don't blame me.
LOL Bea!!!! You wanna know
LOL Bea!!!! You wanna know the funniest thing about this? My personal beliefs are that you of all people (your age group that is) are the ONLY people in this country that should be taken care of by the gov't. Truly taken care of. In a "worry free" kind of way. I actually believe it to be sickening the way we treat our senior citizens in this country.
I will debate this huge mistake of health care "reform" (and i use that term loosely) with you all night long and with a burning fire in my eyes, but i guarantee if i were to meet you on the street, i would be the first to open a door for you and tip my hat to you. Hat tipping really is a lost art among us 36 year olds (to answer your question about my age)
It sounds like YOU have certainly been a productive member of society, MOST of the people that will "benefit" from this bill may not share our work ethics. I do appologize if you really were that stung by my comments, but how can someone who believes in standing on her own two feet believe in bankrupting the rest of us so others who may not share our work ethic can get coverage and usher in yet another wave of gov't oppression in this country?
I still have a lot of years of hard work to go before i retire, and as taxes keep rising and rising and the lazy keep getting handouts from my hard earned money, the more frustrating it is to see bills like this passed :(
So Bea, your in the health food business huh? Well, I tip my hat and my cool ranch dorito's to you :)
Nicely said Tim...I tip my
Nicely said Tim...I tip my hat to you!
Posted by Tim Howe on March
Posted by Tim Howe on March 24, 2010 - 8:39pm
\I do appologize if you really were that stung by my comments,
Accepted.
but how can someone who believes in standing on her own two feet believe in bankrupting the rest of us so others who may not share our work ethic can get coverage and usher in yet another wave of gov't oppression in this country?
There are children not getting the medication they need to live (I used to work in pharmaceutical R&D, and another time I'll go into orphan drugs), are they the lazy people with no work ethic? They may not live to acquire a work ethic. There are people, for whatever reason, are part of the working poor who will benefit from this bill and from our own compassion.
Chris has stated the benefit to the small business owner.
I still have a lot of years of hard work to go before i retire, and as taxes keep rising and rising and the lazy keep getting handouts from my hard earned money, the more frustrating it is to see bills like this passed :(
Do you know of anyone, first hand, who was dealt an overwhelming burden that needed help? Perhaps if you had you wouldn't be so quick to say that YOUR hard earned money shouldn't help them.
So Bea, your in the health food business huh? Well, I tip my hat and my cool ranch dorito's to you :)
I'm not in the health food business. I'm in the business of providing a service to senior citizens who live on a limited income. Yes, we have cool ranch doritos and Kutter's Cheese and juice, water, and soda along with other treats they enjoy.
The labeling of someone who may not agree with your politics is so wrong on so many levels. I am a progressive, I lean toward the liberal but I am far from lazy and worthless!
“My personal beliefs are that
“My personal beliefs are that you of all people (your age group that is) are the ONLY people in this country that should be taken care of by the gov't.”
You may find a stroll through the NY State School for the Blind enlightening.
Adama, I am not a "Rush"
Adama, I am not a "Rush" listener. If you really read my posts, you would know that I am a proponenet of people researching for themselves and not relying the media for their take on important issues. I know that the media lies, and even Fox news, Rush and other right leaning outlets only feed you what they want you to hear. Everything I have quoted came directly the actual bill and the IRS agent figure came directly from a report by the Ways and Means Committee. Have you read the bill?
Adama...I have been reading
Adama...I have been reading the bill since it was posted online. While I haven't seen a specific number (15,000)of IRS agents to be added, it does seem reasonable to assume that more will be needed to handle health care compliance issues.
Now Bea.....Don't go pimping
Now Bea.....Don't go pimping children out to tug at our heart strings and try to put a good face on this bill like Obama did the other day when he signed this bill into law and had that child standing next to him dressed just like him with the same color tie looking like obama jr. *tisk* *tisk*
Now are you honestly telling me that with all the socialistic programs we already have out there that these children of the poor or orphans that you speak of honestly could not get life saving medicine? I find that VERY hard to believe. If lazy people who dont want to work can go on public assistance with no questions asked, i am sure that same system will help the children.
I think taxes and cable tv should share one common denomonator. i know thats probally not a statement you hear everyday but hear me out....
I have always had a problem with the way cable tv was set up. They charge you one big fat riduculous price, and tell you that you are going to receive hundreds and hundreds of channels. Sounds great huh? Well 385 out of the 400 channels are junk to me. Why cant i get a list of channels with a price next to each one with a box for me to check so i only receive the channels i want and pay each month accordingly.
TBS .75 X
TNT .50 X
SPIKE .80 X
CBS 1.25 X
I wish we could do this with our tax dollars each year. How would you like your tax dollars spent?
Welfare
universal health care
DEFENSE X
wasteful gov't agency
another wasteful gov't agency
yet another wasteful gov't agency
This way WE THE PEOPLE who technically are supposed to be the ones in charge would truly have the freedoms we supposedly have to spend our tax dollars the way we see fit.
Admit it Bea, you like this idea :)
Another surprise I discovered
Another surprise I discovered while reading the bill, and I say surprise because I have not heard anyone or any news outlet mention it, is found in Division C: Public Health & Workforce Development, Title V-Other Provisions, Subtitle C- Food & Drug Administration which will require all chain restaurants (defined as 20 or more restaurants operating under the same name regardless of ownership structure) to include calorie content information for EVERY menu item on all menus/menu boards and nutritional information available upon request. At first glance I assumed this meant the big guys like McDonalds, etc...who already do this...until I realized that Pontillo's Pizzeria has 25 locations in Rochester, so they will be required to comply with this too.
Lets see if these Democrat
Lets see if these Democrat business owners that claim the government (meaning us the taxpayers )are going to give them a 35% tax credit towards the employees health care as Chris put it..If in return give all the employee a raise or pocket the money,like those bailed out Wall Street bad guys..After all,they think this was great thing the Health Care bill..As the years go on we will find out what a money grab this was all about..To be forced by law to buy something that you don't want is wrong..Wait to you all see how much the states share of medicade will increase over the years..
Chris's response didn't
Chris's response didn't really answer my question: How will this benefit me?
I have no employees. I hope that won't always be the case, but that is how it is now.
The best health care costs I can find for insurance are $700 per month. At this stage, that is very difficult to handle.
Plus, I still have to pay taxes, and it's hard to believe that this health care "reform" and the way things are going with government, my taxes won't go up.
Look at all the ads on the site. We're not doing poorly. I'm grateful for the community support, both in readers and advertisers. But we're not even close to getting rich. We could make a comfortable living. But I'm worried about the government wanting more and more and more.
I totally get the idea of helping out those without insurance. While I'm leery of a government grab for money to "redistribute wealth," I'm also quite aware that our health care system is majorly broken and needs to be fixed.
I've always believed that at some level "all have a right to health care" (however we might achieve that).
You can make the case to me that health care is a basic human right.
But I've yet to see how this bill doesn't make things worse rather than better, and how it will benefit me - or people like me -- people who might find a way to scrape together the money for health insurance, but find it a terrible burden.
And I'm worried that while our health insurance costs keeping going up, we're going to see higher taxes just so that "the uninsured poor" get covered. Nothing in this bill assures me that greedy insurance companies still won't find ways to increase costs.
I see nothing in what I've read to assure me that my health insurance costs won't keep going up at the same time my taxes keep going up.
This isn't about me, per se. That's just my perspective. I just think I'm not alone. The defenders of this bill keep painting the opponents as heartless bastards who don't care about the elderly and the children, but I still don't see how this benefits American society as a WHOLE.
Tim, I am talking about
Tim,
I am talking about orphan drugs, not orphans.
Howard; won't small
Howard; won't small businesses be able to participate in "insurance pools" helping to give people like you group buying power?
Bea:"but I started working in 1954! I continued working, and paid taxes until I retired a year ago. Tim that is 51 years of laziness." Sorry to be the math police but that would be 55 years. Obviously, you're not lazy.
Adama: I don't usually agree with Jeff on much, but I will say he's no Rushie or mouth piece for any of the so-called pundits, he does his homework. Richard however............
..................................................
Tim Howe wrote:"If lazy
Tim Howe wrote:"If lazy people who dont want to work can go on public assistance with no questions asked,"
I'm no defender of the welfare system, but I don't think you can just walk in to wherever and say "I don't want to work, where do I sign up for welfare." I'm pretty sure you have to have a reason for not being able to work. No doubt, there are people scamming the system and lying about their condition. I'm just challenging the no questions asked part.
Adama, I have been reading
Adama,
I have been reading the bill, yes all 2000 page of the enhance all inclusive package,and it does state the new role that the IRS will play. The amount has not been directly specific to 15,000 but it does call for an increase No Greater than 16500 new agents.
I don't listen to Rush. He's a windbag. I also don't just listen to the main line media. They only like to talk about the top 5 bullet points.
Dave, I can't speak for
Dave,
I can't speak for anyone other than myself. I use to believe that social programs were really effective. That they served a great purpose to help our poor, then I began to run businesses, including one here in town. What I saw made me start to really read up.
Every month I would see literally hundreds of people that would come in to purchase high ticket items in cash, then turn around and use food stamps to buy their kids candy bars. As I progressed in my career, the offenses got worse.
Dave, if this would a one off isolated incidient, I probably wound have never thought twice, but these behaviors are very wide spread. I have met so many people who are on services that are abled body and of sound mind. Needing help is one thing, being helpless is another.
I would go without anything and have for years, to make sure that my family was fed and cared for. So let me ask this? How can we change the standards? Why should a person who is on total government funding allowe to have ammenities like,Dish TV, Iphones, new laptops, big screen TVs and so on?
If the federal governmane can force me to pay for something with money that I made, why could it not tell people what to buy with money that we gave them?
Phil; Yeah I guess that's
Phil; Yeah I guess that's where my quandary lies, I know there are people much less fortunate than I. Be it physical or mental, some people just can't make it in society and I don't want to just throw them away. But, if they are just given everything how will they ever change their situation? Way back, many years ago after recently getting out of the service and trying to get started in a career, I had 3 small children under 5 years old. I wasn't making squat, my wife would work as a waitress at night after I got home because we couldn't afford day care/ baby sitter. DIdn't have health insurance either by the way. My infant son fell ill, we took him the emergency room and I paid the bill off 20 and 30 dollars at a time until paid. We qualified for food stamps and some assistance, I told my wife No, in no uncertain terms, in no way would I accept that. Looking back, my pride was not worth the risk I put my family in. We came through OK, and nothing has ever come easy, but I don't look down on people who aren't jack-asses like me. I should have just kept my head down and my mouth shut and stayed in the Navy for 20, but pride didn't let me do that either, which is why I was starting over at that point.
I bared my chest, only to point out that I know about going without many things to put food on the table and a roof over our head. I'll say that there are abuses, there are generations of people having children out of wedlock to avoid having to fend for themselves and just out right liars collecting government money. I don't know how to fix it Phil, but it's hard to tell someone who's living on food stamps to get off your butt when we see Wall St fat cats and Politicians' buddies getting Gov't bail outs, and not to mention the perks and pay the Politicians get. We need a total make over of our society. No more career Politicians and hand outs for already wealthy people, then maybe we can get people on the dole to take part.
Living on assistance or welfare or whatever it is called can't be only basic subsistence, because a lot of people truly cannot get out because of actual disabilities we can't punish them because of the scumbags. I guess better management is the key.
Sorry for the rambling.
Richard, if there was a
Richard, if there was a Reagan-era boom, it missed you and I. The '80s recession- high inflation rates was tailed by the '90s recession of falling interest rates. Maybe the draft-beer prices at Kelly's saloon made you feel like a millionaire.
Come on CM Kelley's has never
Come on CM Kelley's has never sold draft beer.
No apologies needed, Dave. I
No apologies needed, Dave.
I understand completely where you are coming from. I came from a very poor family as well and had little to nothing as I was coming up. My mother was an alcoholic, my father a gambler. I have earned everything in my life since I was thirteen years old.
My problem Dave isn't that there are people in this world that need help from time to time, but rather that people can stay on it with little to no consequence. Further, the system is designed to keep you on it. If you start making too much money they take your benefits away and usually that is enough for them to go back.
I am not without compassion to those in need, but an economic line based on income in the sand, is a joke. I don't hold any person is a scornful regard, but I also don't look at people who have more than me and have envy either. If I want more for my life then it is up to myself and myslef alone to do something about that.
We live in a country, for now anyway, where you can really achieve any height in any way you want if you take the time, energy, desire and focus that is needed. Coming from a poor, abusive, irresponsible or otherwise bad background can not be an excuse to sit by and do nothing.
As far as the Navy thing, I don't blame you a bit. One term in the Army was good enough for me!
I'll take your word on it,
I'll take your word on it, Richard. Whenever I went to Kelley's, I played pool and drank BV with a splash.
How about slim jims beer nuts
How about slim jims beer nuts pork rinds or blind robbins?
WE had already agreed months
WE had already agreed months ago to no longer dialogue with each other because our intechanges became so nasty. can't you respect that sir? i'm sure the other members of this site can speak for themselves in a dialogue with me & that they don't need you to do it for them. once again, i respectfully ask that you please refrain from contacting or adressing me on THE BATAVIAN as well as refrain from inserting yourself in my conversations with other member(s).
Phil; "We live in a country,
Phil; "We live in a country, for now anyway, where you can really achieve any height in any way you want if you take the time, energy, desire and focus that is needed. Coming from a poor, abusive, irresponsible or otherwise bad background can not be an excuse to sit by and do nothing."
I hear you, I had the benefit of wonderful parents who taught me right from wrong, and I did my best to pass that along to my children and they are doing great. You had to have a lot more mental toughness than most. I've got to point out that the time, energy, focus and desire today needs to be a hell of a lot stronger than it was 30 years ago. Too many people become parents without much of an example to base it on. Everyone isn't as tough-minded as you. I'd like to say I don't have scorn for people who can't seem to break out of their situations, truth is I do have disdain. I work on it every day. I am a Christian, not a very good one but I keep trying to follow the teachings of Jesus and have compassion and not be so judgmental. It's tough when added to the daily burdens we all deal with. Anyway.........I'll stop boring everyone.
...
...
It's no bore my friend. It's
It's no bore my friend.
It's hard sometimes to forgive. Just remember to dislike the sin and not the sinner! I believe that people are fundmentally good, but just don't know how to get out of their own way.
Don't beat yourself up, I get annoyed way too much more than I should also! It's just those darn pesky principles!
Posted by Bea McManis on
Posted by Bea McManis on March 25, 2010 - 6:53am
Tim,
I am talking about orphan drugs, not orphans.
Ok Bea, that makes MUCH more sense...My fault i read that WAY wrong :)
Posted by Phil Ricci on March
Posted by Phil Ricci on March 25, 2010 - 9:21am
If the federal governmane can force me to pay for something with money that I made, why could it not tell people what to buy with money that we gave them?
Phil, I think that is the smartest post so far in this thread, and i have used pretty much that EXACT question for years when debating others about welfare.
Picture it...early 90's my best friend got one of his first jobs at Jubilee as a cashier. He would tell me horror storys ALL THE TIME about "Welly's" coming through his line with cigarettes and beer and trying to pay for them with food stamps. When my friend would tell them in a calm and respective way that food stamps do not cover such items, those Welly's would absolutely flip out on him in a very LOUD, OBNOXIOUS, RUDE way. Now i know not every Welly is an abrasive abuser of the system, but i would be willing to bet that more of them ARE than ARE NOT.
Also Phil, i want to give you an opportunity for a cheap plug here.....What business in town do you own?
Ha! Thanks Tim! I love me
Ha! Thanks Tim! I love me some plugs! I own a small software company called Slice Apps. I also have a website that disucusses business and mangement: www.theworldbyphil.com.
I ran the K-mart though for years. :-) Thanks for the compliment! Too bad I had a brain fart when I was typing government!
I'm a sucker for irony. Most
I'm a sucker for irony. Most have a hobby of sorts- mine is identifying irony. I don't recall EVER seeing a federal policy debate on this site comparable to the weeks-long exchanges over health care reform.
Our taxes fund government spending on any number of things. I recall reading about DOD paying $750 for hammers and likewise ridiculous prices for toilet seats and washers... The susceptibility of burocracy to victimization by unscrupulous vendors is not the issue.
Our taxes have been funding military activities in Iraq and Afghanistan for decades. The Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979. Throughout the 1980s we supported the Mujahideen resistance. The Iraq/Iran war sparked in 1980. Throughout the 1980s we supported Saddam Hussein. Bush I sent troops to defend Kuwait in 1990. Bush II invaded Iraq in 2003. U.S. began air strikes on Afghan-Taliban positions in 2001.
U.S. casualties in Iraq, 2003 - current, are approximately 5,000 dead and 30,000 wounded. Since 2001, the cost of the Iraq military action is $714,006,811,000; cost of the Afghanistan action is $261,657,352,000.
Regardless of motivation: retaliation for 9/11, WMD, Iraqi independence, energy security, world peace or Russian gas pipelines- does the destabilization of global economic and political alignment warrant such expenditure?
War and health care reform may seem like apples and oranges. If I had to choose between spending (wasting) MY money on one or the other- I'd buy health care NOT death and destruction.
Phil, I thought you were in
Phil,
I thought you were in banking?
C.M. you wrote: Regardless of
C.M. you wrote: Regardless of motivation: retaliation for 9/11, WMD, Iraqi independence, energy security, world peace or Russian gas pipelines- does the destabilization of global economic and political alignment warrant such expenditure?"
In my humble opinion: NO,
this is sad but interesting: http://www.buffalonews.com/2010/03/24/998271/striving-to-ease-anguish-l…
What part of "War is Hell" didn't our congress understand?
I am John. I have both!
I am John. I have both!
Rick, why bother arguing. I
Rick, why bother arguing. I have no job, no income, no insurance. I'm waiting of Osa I mean Obama to save me.