I see alot of yes votes..are these helpful gangs or harmful ones??..What evidence Is there?? Are we concerned about this?? how many members In the largest gang??I believe a "Batavia" gang would only Involve the below 20 age group>>no real sophistication to It
I'm wondering based on what evidence -- the high crime rate? The drive-by shootings? The thugs just standing on street corners flying their colors? The turf wars? The youths intimidating residents who might call the cops and report their activities?
I've been to Southeast San Diego and East LA. If there's gang activity in Batavia than Santa Claus really lives at the North Pole and Tinker Bell isn't just a Disney character.
Using a loose definition from wikipedia : "A gang is a group of three or more people who, through the organization, formation, and establishment of an assemblage, share a common identity.[2] In current usage it typically denotes a criminal organization or else a criminal affiliation". I would have to say yes.
I don't think there are "Gangs" per say, but probably visitors from Buffalo and Rochester with gang afilliation. Gangbanging is a behavior displayed by "want to be" thugs. I dont think we have to worry here in our fine city, because I have faith that our male residents, and law enforcement would take a stand, if needed, to keep our Jem of a city safe.
Let me see if I have this right. At 10:25 this morning Howard posts a poll asking if there is gang activity in Batavia, then at 10:56 he posts a comment mocking people that say there is gang activity in the poll he posted.
Genesee County is listed as "no reporting", which does not necessarily mean 0. I think that our proximity to Erie and Monroe Counties, each with significant gang activity, makes it reasonable to believe that Batavia may be strategically and logistically valuable to gang type activities, i.e. drug trafficking.
This link discusses combating street gangs: http://www.ojjdp.ncjrs.gov/pubs/reform/ch2_e.html#103
In New York, a task force composed of the FBI, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency, INS, the U.S. attorney's office in Buffalo, the New York State Police, the Erie County Sheriff's Department, the Erie County and Genesee County district attorney's offices, and the police departments of Rochester, Amherst, and Buffalo conducted an 18-month investigation of several drug trafficking organizations and street gangs. Using court-authorized wiretaps, undercover operations, and other investigative techniques, the joint task force probe resulted in the indictment of 71 defendants, including the leader of the Goodyear Crew, a street gang operating in Buffalo. Forty defendants have pleaded guilty, and the rest were awaiting trial, as of September 1996.
If there is no gang activity in Genesee County, why would our D.A.'s office be a valuable asset to this investigation?
I grew up in North Long Beach California. I know a thing or two about gangs and the activity they conduct.The "gangs" or "gang activity" here in our fair city is far less sophisticated than that of larger cities this is true. Do we have drive by shooting's no. Do we have guys out on the corner slanging and banging no. I would hope that the cops are just trying to down play the situation. But to deny that gangs exist in Batavia because they are not engaging in the same behavior as more sophisticated gangs from the big city is irresponsible. Should we form a posse and hunt them down? No. I do not believe we are at that point yet. With people moving in from the big cities the influence of gangs will follow regardless of what anyone here thinks.
This incident on state street may well have been nothing more than a random non-gang related incident. However; when coupled with the incident at the carnival, it starts to seem a little less random.
The gangs start out small. For protection or a family because their biological family is lacking or nonexistent. I would hope that the local law enforcement are cognizant of the individuals that are at risk.
While the activity of some may be thuggish and gang-like, I don't believe there are gangs in Batavia. I do believe we have a growing representation of street people, drug-dealers, and petty thieves, and it's not getting any better.
Howard- I pray that we never see real gang activity here. One of the main reasons I left Phoenix, and never considered SoCal, is the presence of street gangs in the community. There were places you wouldn't go even in daylight, and Batavia has nothing close to that.
What I've observed is not gang activity, but there is a criminal element in the city (and some of the surrounding communities) of people who loosely affiliate in criminal and non-criminal activity.
Based on what we know of the carnival incident and the recent attack on State Street, these seem more like associates banding together than organized gangs.
Wouldn't you consider drug trafficking to be a gang activity?
Getting your hands on certain drugs used to mean a trip to the "city" (Buffalo or Rochester). That is no longer necessary because they are being brought here for distribution. I think it is only a matter of time before the Batavia drug market becomes something rival gangs in Buffalo/Rochester might feel is worth fighting for to retain market share.
"Wouldn't you consider drug trafficking to be a gang activity?"
No.
Not all drug dealers are gang members.
"I think it is only a matter of time before the Batavia drug market becomes something rival gangs in Buffalo/Rochester might feel is worth fighting for to retain market share. "
That might be true.
I'm not arguing against fighting crime, either by the police or by more community organization. I'm arguing against loosely using the term "gang activity" for the criminal activity currently in the city. It is burdening the city with a heavy term it doesn't deserve.
I am a “big city” transplant also and I do not think there is gang activity here like is portrayed as happening in the big cities. So I agree with Howard’s perspective 100%. Crime seemed to be rampant here so I looked up the stats and this area is about half the nation’s average for crime except for rape and petty larceny. Being in a small town makes all crime seem more personal. 5 youths with bats are a group of thugs not organized crime like the modern urban definition of a gang.
No, George "gang activity" and "group activity" are in no way synonymous.
From Wikipedia: "Gangs are involved in all areas of street-crime activities like extortion, drug trafficking[47], both in and outside the prison system and theft. Gangs also victimize individuals by robbery and kidnapping.[48]
Street gangs' take over territory or "turf" in a particular city and are often involved in "providing protection", often a thin cover for extortion, as the "protection" is usually from the gang itself, or in other criminal activity." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang
I live in this city, just off one of the supposedly worst streets in the city, and on one that supposedly ain't all that grand (shows up in the blotter quite frequently, in fact). I'm out in the city all the time. I know what I see. I'm also very involved in reporting the crime in this city. I'm quite confident in what I the position I've taken here.
You my be right about the police blotter. I had no idea at all there was a gang of alpacas marauding around the town until it finally made the police blotter. (my favorite story of the day)
Does anyone know yet what the real motive behind the State St. baseball bat attacks was?
Howard originally reported that the police said that they didn't think it was gang related; which means to me that they considered it, but weren't certain that it wasn't true.
You can’t ague with another person’s perception. To people who have grown up in Batavia, what we are seeing is “gang” activity or the precursors of it and that frightens people. What we have seen would be the loosely based definition of a group of kids or want to be criminals working together.
If you grew up in a bigger city like Buffalo or San Diego, these issues wouldn’t even make the news. I think you would also find that our small town troublemakers wouldn’t live long in a big city gang environment.
Maybe when these "issues" stopped making the news, is the bigger issue.
I have to believe that gangs don't just spring up overnight and take hold of a community; but is rather a gradual escalation of criminal activity. By the time you reach the level of drive-by shootings, murder, etc...you've already lost the war.
The day that a group of thugs assaulting people with baseball bats DOESN'T make my local paper...is the day I move.
Charlie I have to agree with you.
As far as what people here are seeing is the precursors.
I was born and raised in North Long Beach California.
It was and still is an area of Long Beach that is heavily infested with gangs. When I joined the Marine Corps in 1996 I swore I would never go back. I did not want to raise a family in that kind of environment.
My high school had two perimeter fences forming a no mans land and metal detectors at all the entrances. I use to dream about the kind of school like was portrayed on 90210. The neighborhood was on a steady decline.
When I got assigned as a recruiter here in Batavia I was kind of happy cause it wasn't the city. But as a recruiter I got to come into contact with the less savory portion of the population of which I would turn away on a regular basis because of my personal experience with what is gang activity and gang affiliation.
I see the precursors and would like to know that the police department does not perceive the general population as ignorant. The law enforcement and the general population should be on the same team. When law enforcement plays a game of semantics in order to preserve property values or a small town image I believe they our doing are city a disservice.
You're all pretty much right based on your personal definition of 'gang.'
When the cops say 'gang-related' they mean the dictionary definition type 'gang.' Structure, hierarchy, group identity, different sorts of criminal activity etc...
I think George's point is based on (excuse the poor choice of words) crime volume, particularly related to the local drug trade, and not necessarily gang affiliation. He's right too, all we know about crime is what gets reported. For all we know there's somebody downtown selling coke by the skid.
I like Jeremiah's take as well. We don't have dictionary definition gang activity here right now, at least not on any (according to the county) reportable scale, but the temperature seems right and it's certainly something we need to watch for.
Hey George, I wave to ya every once in a while when you pass the store on Lyon Street, You're always staring intently at the stop light though :)
The main difference between this argument and that one is that the semantics were solid. Howard and I both have the same definition of useless. I said that Hawley is useless and Howard seemed to think that useless is acceptable. :)
I see alot of yes votes..are
I see alot of yes votes..are these helpful gangs or harmful ones??..What evidence Is there?? Are we concerned about this?? how many members In the largest gang??I believe a "Batavia" gang would only Involve the below 20 age group>>no real sophistication to It
I'm wondering based on what
I'm wondering based on what evidence -- the high crime rate? The drive-by shootings? The thugs just standing on street corners flying their colors? The turf wars? The youths intimidating residents who might call the cops and report their activities?
I've been to Southeast San Diego and East LA. If there's gang activity in Batavia than Santa Claus really lives at the North Pole and Tinker Bell isn't just a Disney character.
Using a loose definition from
Using a loose definition from wikipedia : "A gang is a group of three or more people who, through the organization, formation, and establishment of an assemblage, share a common identity.[2] In current usage it typically denotes a criminal organization or else a criminal affiliation". I would have to say yes.
I don't think there are
I don't think there are "Gangs" per say, but probably visitors from Buffalo and Rochester with gang afilliation. Gangbanging is a behavior displayed by "want to be" thugs. I dont think we have to worry here in our fine city, because I have faith that our male residents, and law enforcement would take a stand, if needed, to keep our Jem of a city safe.
http://www.silent-movies.org/
http://www.silent-movies.org/Kids/OurGang/OurGang65.jpg
what about the owens gang, I
what about the owens gang, I hear thier leader drives around genesee county and take pictures of barns, should we lock our doors.
Now, if the poll asked me if
Now, if the poll asked me if I was in fear of any gang activity I would have voted no.
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HAHAHAHA!!! Let me see if I
HAHAHAHA!!!
Let me see if I have this right. At 10:25 this morning Howard posts a poll asking if there is gang activity in Batavia, then at 10:56 he posts a comment mocking people that say there is gang activity in the poll he posted.
Here's an interesting link
Here's an interesting link with statistics of gang membership by county.
http://www.justice.gov/ndic/pubs32/32146/east.htm#Figure6
Genesee County is listed as "no reporting", which does not necessarily mean 0. I think that our proximity to Erie and Monroe Counties, each with significant gang activity, makes it reasonable to believe that Batavia may be strategically and logistically valuable to gang type activities, i.e. drug trafficking.
This link discusses combating street gangs:
http://www.ojjdp.ncjrs.gov/pubs/reform/ch2_e.html#103
In New York, a task force composed of the FBI, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency, INS, the U.S. attorney's office in Buffalo, the New York State Police, the Erie County Sheriff's Department, the Erie County and Genesee County district attorney's offices, and the police departments of Rochester, Amherst, and Buffalo conducted an 18-month investigation of several drug trafficking organizations and street gangs. Using court-authorized wiretaps, undercover operations, and other investigative techniques, the joint task force probe resulted in the indictment of 71 defendants, including the leader of the Goodyear Crew, a street gang operating in Buffalo. Forty defendants have pleaded guilty, and the rest were awaiting trial, as of September 1996.
If there is no gang activity in Genesee County, why would our D.A.'s office be a valuable asset to this investigation?
A third link looks at gang migration:
http://www.ojjdp.ncjrs.gov/jjbulletin/9810_1/gang8.html
Howard, I grew up in North
Howard,
I grew up in North Long Beach California. I know a thing or two about gangs and the activity they conduct.The "gangs" or "gang activity" here in our fair city is far less sophisticated than that of larger cities this is true. Do we have drive by shooting's no. Do we have guys out on the corner slanging and banging no. I would hope that the cops are just trying to down play the situation. But to deny that gangs exist in Batavia because they are not engaging in the same behavior as more sophisticated gangs from the big city is irresponsible. Should we form a posse and hunt them down? No. I do not believe we are at that point yet. With people moving in from the big cities the influence of gangs will follow regardless of what anyone here thinks.
This incident on state street may well have been nothing more than a random non-gang related incident. However; when coupled with the incident at the carnival, it starts to seem a little less random.
The gangs start out small. For protection or a family because their biological family is lacking or nonexistent. I would hope that the local law enforcement are cognizant of the individuals that are at risk.
While the activity of some
While the activity of some may be thuggish and gang-like, I don't believe there are gangs in Batavia. I do believe we have a growing representation of street people, drug-dealers, and petty thieves, and it's not getting any better.
Howard- I pray that we never see real gang activity here. One of the main reasons I left Phoenix, and never considered SoCal, is the presence of street gangs in the community. There were places you wouldn't go even in daylight, and Batavia has nothing close to that.
What I've observed is not
What I've observed is not gang activity, but there is a criminal element in the city (and some of the surrounding communities) of people who loosely affiliate in criminal and non-criminal activity.
Based on what we know of the carnival incident and the recent attack on State Street, these seem more like associates banding together than organized gangs.
George, you start out as if
George, you start out as if you say you're disagreeing with me, but go on to back up exactly what I'm saying.
"Gang activity" is a very heavy term, one this community shouldn't be burdened with under present circumstances.
There is simply no evidence of gang activity in Batavia.
There is criminal activity, and for long-time residents it might even seem worse than it's every been, but it still pretty petty and manageable.
Howard, how do you define
Howard, how do you define gang activity?
Wouldn't you consider drug trafficking to be a gang activity?
Getting your hands on certain drugs used to mean a trip to the "city" (Buffalo or Rochester). That is no longer necessary because they are being brought here for distribution. I think it is only a matter of time before the Batavia drug market becomes something rival gangs in Buffalo/Rochester might feel is worth fighting for to retain market share.
"Wouldn't you consider drug
"Wouldn't you consider drug trafficking to be a gang activity?"
No.
Not all drug dealers are gang members.
"I think it is only a matter of time before the Batavia drug market becomes something rival gangs in Buffalo/Rochester might feel is worth fighting for to retain market share. "
That might be true.
I'm not arguing against fighting crime, either by the police or by more community organization. I'm arguing against loosely using the term "gang activity" for the criminal activity currently in the city. It is burdening the city with a heavy term it doesn't deserve.
I am a “big city” transplant
I am a “big city” transplant also and I do not think there is gang activity here like is portrayed as happening in the big cities. So I agree with Howard’s perspective 100%. Crime seemed to be rampant here so I looked up the stats and this area is about half the nation’s average for crime except for rape and petty larceny. Being in a small town makes all crime seem more personal. 5 youths with bats are a group of thugs not organized crime like the modern urban definition of a gang.
No, George "gang activity"
No, George "gang activity" and "group activity" are in no way synonymous.
From Wikipedia: "Gangs are involved in all areas of street-crime activities like extortion, drug trafficking[47], both in and outside the prison system and theft. Gangs also victimize individuals by robbery and kidnapping.[48]
Street gangs' take over territory or "turf" in a particular city and are often involved in "providing protection", often a thin cover for extortion, as the "protection" is usually from the gang itself, or in other criminal activity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang
"Get on the front lines"
"Get on the front lines" ?
What does that mean?
I live in this city, just off one of the supposedly worst streets in the city, and on one that supposedly ain't all that grand (shows up in the blotter quite frequently, in fact). I'm out in the city all the time. I know what I see. I'm also very involved in reporting the crime in this city. I'm quite confident in what I the position I've taken here.
"You report what you're told,
"You report what you're told, not what you see. "
Who says?
Not me.
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You my be right about the
You my be right about the police blotter. I had no idea at all there was a gang of alpacas marauding around the town until it finally made the police blotter. (my favorite story of the day)
Does anyone know yet what the
Does anyone know yet what the real motive behind the State St. baseball bat attacks was?
Howard originally reported that the police said that they didn't think it was gang related; which means to me that they considered it, but weren't certain that it wasn't true.
Any more info on this Howard?
You can’t ague with another
You can’t ague with another person’s perception. To people who have grown up in Batavia, what we are seeing is “gang” activity or the precursors of it and that frightens people. What we have seen would be the loosely based definition of a group of kids or want to be criminals working together.
If you grew up in a bigger city like Buffalo or San Diego, these issues wouldn’t even make the news. I think you would also find that our small town troublemakers wouldn’t live long in a big city gang environment.
Maybe when these "issues"
Maybe when these "issues" stopped making the news, is the bigger issue.
I have to believe that gangs don't just spring up overnight and take hold of a community; but is rather a gradual escalation of criminal activity. By the time you reach the level of drive-by shootings, murder, etc...you've already lost the war.
The day that a group of thugs assaulting people with baseball bats DOESN'T make my local paper...is the day I move.
The mafia and ties to it have
The mafia and ties to it have been in Batavia for many years.
Charlie I have to agree with
Charlie I have to agree with you.
As far as what people here are seeing is the precursors.
I was born and raised in North Long Beach California.
It was and still is an area of Long Beach that is heavily infested with gangs. When I joined the Marine Corps in 1996 I swore I would never go back. I did not want to raise a family in that kind of environment.
My high school had two perimeter fences forming a no mans land and metal detectors at all the entrances. I use to dream about the kind of school like was portrayed on 90210. The neighborhood was on a steady decline.
When I got assigned as a recruiter here in Batavia I was kind of happy cause it wasn't the city. But as a recruiter I got to come into contact with the less savory portion of the population of which I would turn away on a regular basis because of my personal experience with what is gang activity and gang affiliation.
I see the precursors and would like to know that the police department does not perceive the general population as ignorant. The law enforcement and the general population should be on the same team. When law enforcement plays a game of semantics in order to preserve property values or a small town image I believe they our doing are city a disservice.
The level arguments can reach
The level arguments can reach on this site due to simple semantic misunderstandings will never cease to amaze me.
You're all pretty much right
You're all pretty much right based on your personal definition of 'gang.'
When the cops say 'gang-related' they mean the dictionary definition type 'gang.' Structure, hierarchy, group identity, different sorts of criminal activity etc...
I think George's point is based on (excuse the poor choice of words) crime volume, particularly related to the local drug trade, and not necessarily gang affiliation. He's right too, all we know about crime is what gets reported. For all we know there's somebody downtown selling coke by the skid.
I like Jeremiah's take as well. We don't have dictionary definition gang activity here right now, at least not on any (according to the county) reportable scale, but the temperature seems right and it's certainly something we need to watch for.
Hey George, I wave to ya
Hey George, I wave to ya every once in a while when you pass the store on Lyon Street, You're always staring intently at the stop light though :)
The main difference between this argument and that one is that the semantics were solid. Howard and I both have the same definition of useless. I said that Hawley is useless and Howard seemed to think that useless is acceptable. :)
The only difference between
The only difference between groups of juvenille delinquents from my years in Batavia and now, is the skin color. That why they are called gangs now.