I want to change my vote!
I said "who is Bradley Manning"
Then I read the attached article...
Now I want to say "He is a criminal"
Charge him with treason and hang his ass high.
It attributed the leaks to Pfc. Bradley Manning, who has been in custody since the release of the Baghdad video, which WikiLeaks titled “Collateral Murder.” In July, Mr. Manning was charged with “transferring classified data onto his personal computer and adding unauthorized software to a classified computer system” and “communicating, transmitting and delivering national defense information to an unauthorized source.” He faces up to 52 years in prison.
Naturally, WikiLeaks refuses to confirm that Manning was the source of the documents, but assuming he was, what are we to make of him? Is he a hero or a villain?
"The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating in no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people." Ron Paul (Republican Congressmen TX-14)
Dave, do you know who outed Valerie Plame? It was Armitage. And in so doing he did not violate the Intelligence Identities Protection Act or the special prosecutor didn't indite him for some other reason. So he didn't break a law and was never held in custody for it, unlike Manning.
And yes I could do it. I would have no problem at all. And then I'd spit on his corpse.
Hell I already feel responsible for the deaths of several Iraqi civilians during the first night of strikes. But thats another matter.
Well, that answers that question. I can't say good luck with that but keep your gun polished up just in case you get that opportunity. Myself I've taken a more peaceful route.
I also feel somewhat responsible for the death of those several Iraqi civilians you mentioned. Because of my fear of being imprisoned, I send money every April 15th to help finance the murder of those innocent humans.
Hah.....I call BS on Peter, he talks pretty tough but it takes alot more than words on a page to actually face someone and take their life. No matter what the reasons. Our own self preservation instinct makes us hesitate. So go on and talk a good fight Peter. Everyones pretty tough behind a keyboard.
Peter, I'm aware Richard Armitage claimed he was the one who outed her, inadvertently. (yeah sure) That wasn't what I asked. Your answer, I'll infer is: it was OK.
In my opinion, Bradley Manning is not only a criminal, but a cowardly one as well. He deserves to be prosecuted to the full extent that the law allows.
America and Americans should reserve the term "hero" for those who bravely defend our Country and our Constitution and truly deserve the honor.
My reasoning is based on my reading and my interpretation of President Obama's Executive Order # 13526, Classified National Security Information.
The order is very specific about who has classifying authority; mainly the President, Vice President or those designated/approved by the President.
There are specific conditions that must be met in order for information to be classified in accordance with this order. To me, one of the most important conditions, is the requirement that those authorizing something to be classified must be able to "identify or describe the damage to national security" that would occur if the information were to be made public. Basically, they can't just claim that it is in the interest of national security. They must state how national security could be damaged and sign their name to it.
It is also specific about classification prohibitions and limitations.
Part I, Sec. 1.7 Classification Prohibitions and Limitations states:
a) In no case shall information be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, or fail to be declassified in order to:
1. conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error
2. prevent embarrassment to a person, organization or agency
3. restrain competition
4. prevent or delay the release of information that does not require protection in the interest of national security
The order also establishes the procedures for challenges to classification, Part I, Section 1.8 and for oversight, Part 5, Section 5.2.
With regard to the "collateral murder" video that many people view as a public service, I would submit to you that the real public service would have been to identify the government official that classified this information in the first place (who signed their name to it?) in apparent violation of the prohibitions and limitations of classification.
How are we to ever hold our government accountable if people like Bradley Manning or organizations like WikiLeaks circumvent the process?
I can't for the life of me understand how those that profess to hold the Constitution in the highest regard are so willing to relinquish our right to hold our government accountable by giving free reign to the dissemination of information to an activist like Julian Assange whose real agenda is unknown.
He has indicated that the next document dump will be about a large American bank. What's next? Information on private citizens? How long do we allow him to continue virtually unchallenged and with no oversight? My guess is, as is usually the case, people will not take a stand until it personally effects them. If it ever reaches that point...it will probably be too late.
Part I, Sec. 1.7 Classification Prohibitions and Limitations states:
a) In no case shall information be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, or fail to be declassified in order to:
1. conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error
2. prevent embarrassment to a person, organization or agency
3. restrain competition
4. prevent or delay the release of information that does not require protection in the interest of national security
...The above limitations should not only get Manning off the hook - they should initiate a deluge of FOIL requests. Wonder how Hillary Clinton likes her egg facial?
If you bothered to read my previous post, JoAnne, you'd be aware I'm not absolving his security breech. I was musing on the nature of the limitations which would seem to describe a vast portion of what govt doesn't want us to see. ...But you keep up the good work. People who shoot from the hip- every once in awhile actually hit an intended target.
JoAnne, I still stand by the belief that every law that is made is an invitation for someone to find a loophole. The CIA and NSA as well as the DOD don't have a very good reputation for truthiness. They all seem to be more interested in self-preservation. The DOD is not quite as bad and I like Robert Gates actually, but like Howard says above in this thread, everything the government does isn't all right. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB179/
Kyle,
I am a vet. I spent 6 years in the Navy. In my 3rd year I was responsible for fixing a data connection to the USS Spruance in order for it to fire missles into Iraq. This is where I feel directly responsible for taking lives. I then moved on to the USS The Sullivans. While stationed aboard her, I manned the watch with a loaded weapon 2 - 4 times a week. Once while I was on watch a Daoh (sp?) came very close to our ship. I was manning our grenade launcher and was in a position to fire it if they came any closer. Luckily for me, I didn't have to fire at the defenseless fishermen. I also manned the dual barrel .50 cals while we went through the Suez. In many foreign ports I was forced to stand watch with nothing but a radio as the first line of defense for the ship. I am not afraid to hurt those that put my brethren in the military in more harms way then they already are in.
So you can think I am tough behind a keyboard, thats fine. But I will back it up behind my bare hands if I have to.
Dave,
Though I don't think it should have been leaked. I don't think she was in any increased danger. I'm a little fuzzy on the situation as I was too busy serving to really follow it, but wasn't she at a desk job when it was leaked?
Howard, a pretext of Gandhian resistance is to accept the legal penalty for civil disobedience. Jail-time to Gandhi (and his inspiration, Thoreau) was both politically useful and spiritually cleansing (loss of possessions).
Yeah, but who knows what may have happened to people she came in contact with? Maids, dry cleaners, favorite restaurants etc in another country. Someone was probably suspected as a source of some sort. Not to mention it was politically motivated, the White House was trying to discredit her husband.
True enough, and you could add that Manning has put people in danger by leaking memos with names of foreign nationals who were helping us. The US government is not altruistic either. Hell, they've let yours and my Navy brothers die. USS Liberty, USS Pueblo, USS Stark. It just proves that nobody is perfect. The US government is too secretive and arrogant.
Well I'm happy for you Peter I was In the Gulf during Desert Storm as well, I was a GMM1 Serving on the USS Fulton which was servicing the sub launched Tomahawks. Besides my watches with FireControl and my regular watches pretty much like your described (by the way they were called Daioh....so you were close)I was sent over many times to the LST of our Battle group to land land tanks as I had quals on 20mm and 3in guns. On the 20 I had to shoot several small opposing gunboats so I havent "almost" killed I have. I dont like discussing it either and I find your braggadocio pretty much the opposite of most who have done their duty. I am as proud as anyone of my service, but it doesn't mean any of us can or will "kill" in fact most of my comrades respect life all the more.
So behind the keyboard or in front of it you still seem to be talking alot.... Filling in a stereotype rather than being geniune.
All the chest pounding aside, the bottom line is: PFC Manning is in the active military and will be judged by the laws of the Unified Code of Military Justice. In extreme cases can be harsh and exacting. I, for one, would not mind to see this traitor tied to a post and executed for Treason. If not, he is looking at 52 years to contemplate his actions in Leavanworth Federal Prison.
LOL Tp your right about that and if under the UCMJ he is found guilty he could recieve that punishment. He committed this act in a theater of conflict so it's an option that could be brought to bear.
I want to change my vote! I
I want to change my vote!
I said "who is Bradley Manning"
Then I read the attached article...
Now I want to say "He is a criminal"
Charge him with treason and hang his ass high.
It attributed the leaks to Pfc. Bradley Manning, who has been in custody since the release of the Baghdad video, which WikiLeaks titled “Collateral Murder.” In July, Mr. Manning was charged with “transferring classified data onto his personal computer and adding unauthorized software to a classified computer system” and “communicating, transmitting and delivering national defense information to an unauthorized source.” He faces up to 52 years in prison.
Naturally, WikiLeaks refuses to confirm that Manning was the source of the documents, but assuming he was, what are we to make of him? Is he a hero or a villain?
Great opinion article, Howard
Great opinion article, Howard Thanks. Sheldon Richman usually writes what I'm thinking, but much more better.
I'm not so sure about the
I'm not so sure about the value of leaking the diplomatic cables, but getting the "collateral murder" video out was a patriotic public service.
Donate, to help free one of
Donate, to help free one of the few hero's of the latest illegal wars.
http://www.bradleymanning.org/
"The moral and constitutional obligations of our representatives in Washington are to protect our liberty, not coddle the world, precipitating in no-win wars, while bringing bankruptcy and economic turmoil to our people." Ron Paul (Republican Congressmen TX-14)
Yes donate to free this
Yes donate to free this traitor...
Death is his only way out.
You know, Peter, not
You know, Peter, not everything the government does is right.
Hey, Peter and Gary were you
Hey, Peter and Gary were you guys in favor of prosecuting the people who outed Valerie Plame a few years ago or was that OK?
Peter, so wish death for
Peter, so wish death for Bradley Manning.Is this something you could do yourself or would you just pay someone else to do it?
Dave, do you know who outed
Dave, do you know who outed Valerie Plame? It was Armitage. And in so doing he did not violate the Intelligence Identities Protection Act or the special prosecutor didn't indite him for some other reason. So he didn't break a law and was never held in custody for it, unlike Manning.
And yes I could do it. I would have no problem at all. And then I'd spit on his corpse.
Hell I already feel responsible for the deaths of several Iraqi civilians during the first night of strikes. But thats another matter.
Well, that answers that
Well, that answers that question. I can't say good luck with that but keep your gun polished up just in case you get that opportunity. Myself I've taken a more peaceful route.
I also feel somewhat responsible for the death of those several Iraqi civilians you mentioned. Because of my fear of being imprisoned, I send money every April 15th to help finance the murder of those innocent humans.
Hah.....I call BS on Peter,
Hah.....I call BS on Peter, he talks pretty tough but it takes alot more than words on a page to actually face someone and take their life. No matter what the reasons. Our own self preservation instinct makes us hesitate. So go on and talk a good fight Peter. Everyones pretty tough behind a keyboard.
Why is John (American
Why is John (American Taliban) Walker still alive??? He took arms against US Marines while fighting WITH the Taliban!!
We have been paying for this guy's food, heat, a/c, shelter etc for YEARS.....
The Marines should have shot him and left him in a hole with his Taliban buddies.
Our system is broken.
Peter, I'm aware Richard
Peter, I'm aware Richard Armitage claimed he was the one who outed her, inadvertently. (yeah sure) That wasn't what I asked. Your answer, I'll infer is: it was OK.
In my opinion, Bradley
In my opinion, Bradley Manning is not only a criminal, but a cowardly one as well. He deserves to be prosecuted to the full extent that the law allows.
America and Americans should reserve the term "hero" for those who bravely defend our Country and our Constitution and truly deserve the honor.
My reasoning is based on my reading and my interpretation of President Obama's Executive Order # 13526, Classified National Security Information.
The order is very specific about who has classifying authority; mainly the President, Vice President or those designated/approved by the President.
There are specific conditions that must be met in order for information to be classified in accordance with this order. To me, one of the most important conditions, is the requirement that those authorizing something to be classified must be able to "identify or describe the damage to national security" that would occur if the information were to be made public. Basically, they can't just claim that it is in the interest of national security. They must state how national security could be damaged and sign their name to it.
It is also specific about classification prohibitions and limitations.
Part I, Sec. 1.7 Classification Prohibitions and Limitations states:
a) In no case shall information be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, or fail to be declassified in order to:
1. conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error
2. prevent embarrassment to a person, organization or agency
3. restrain competition
4. prevent or delay the release of information that does not require protection in the interest of national security
The order also establishes the procedures for challenges to classification, Part I, Section 1.8 and for oversight, Part 5, Section 5.2.
With regard to the "collateral murder" video that many people view as a public service, I would submit to you that the real public service would have been to identify the government official that classified this information in the first place (who signed their name to it?) in apparent violation of the prohibitions and limitations of classification.
How are we to ever hold our government accountable if people like Bradley Manning or organizations like WikiLeaks circumvent the process?
I can't for the life of me understand how those that profess to hold the Constitution in the highest regard are so willing to relinquish our right to hold our government accountable by giving free reign to the dissemination of information to an activist like Julian Assange whose real agenda is unknown.
He has indicated that the next document dump will be about a large American bank. What's next? Information on private citizens? How long do we allow him to continue virtually unchallenged and with no oversight? My guess is, as is usually the case, people will not take a stand until it personally effects them. If it ever reaches that point...it will probably be too late.
Part I, Sec. 1.7
Part I, Sec. 1.7 Classification Prohibitions and Limitations states:
a) In no case shall information be classified, continue to be maintained as classified, or fail to be declassified in order to:
1. conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error
2. prevent embarrassment to a person, organization or agency
3. restrain competition
4. prevent or delay the release of information that does not require protection in the interest of national security
...The above limitations should not only get Manning off the hook - they should initiate a deluge of FOIL requests. Wonder how Hillary Clinton likes her egg facial?
CM, it would have gotten him
CM, it would have gotten him off the hook if he followed the procedures for a classification challenge that are in place.
He did not. He took it upon himself to steal the information. That still makes him a criminal.
If you bothered to read my
If you bothered to read my previous post, JoAnne, you'd be aware I'm not absolving his security breech. I was musing on the nature of the limitations which would seem to describe a vast portion of what govt doesn't want us to see. ...But you keep up the good work. People who shoot from the hip- every once in awhile actually hit an intended target.
JoAnne, I still stand by the
JoAnne, I still stand by the belief that every law that is made is an invitation for someone to find a loophole. The CIA and NSA as well as the DOD don't have a very good reputation for truthiness. They all seem to be more interested in self-preservation. The DOD is not quite as bad and I like Robert Gates actually, but like Howard says above in this thread, everything the government does isn't all right.
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB179/
There are some who believe
There are some who believe what he did was in the best interest of the country and protects the Constitution.
If the government is behaving badly, the patriotic thing to do is to expose it.
I'm reserving judgment in Bradley's individual case, but I see both sides of the argument.
Kyle, I am a vet. I spent 6
Kyle,
I am a vet. I spent 6 years in the Navy. In my 3rd year I was responsible for fixing a data connection to the USS Spruance in order for it to fire missles into Iraq. This is where I feel directly responsible for taking lives. I then moved on to the USS The Sullivans. While stationed aboard her, I manned the watch with a loaded weapon 2 - 4 times a week. Once while I was on watch a Daoh (sp?) came very close to our ship. I was manning our grenade launcher and was in a position to fire it if they came any closer. Luckily for me, I didn't have to fire at the defenseless fishermen. I also manned the dual barrel .50 cals while we went through the Suez. In many foreign ports I was forced to stand watch with nothing but a radio as the first line of defense for the ship. I am not afraid to hurt those that put my brethren in the military in more harms way then they already are in.
So you can think I am tough behind a keyboard, thats fine. But I will back it up behind my bare hands if I have to.
For Peter-
For Peter- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhow Since Arabic favors consonants over vowels, assume no fault in your spelling.
Dave, Though I don't think it
Dave,
Though I don't think it should have been leaked. I don't think she was in any increased danger. I'm a little fuzzy on the situation as I was too busy serving to really follow it, but wasn't she at a desk job when it was leaked?
Peter, that's my memory of
Peter, that's my memory of Plame. And Joe Wilson was publicity hungry.
Howard, a pretext of Gandhian
Howard, a pretext of Gandhian resistance is to accept the legal penalty for civil disobedience. Jail-time to Gandhi (and his inspiration, Thoreau) was both politically useful and spiritually cleansing (loss of possessions).
Yeah, but who knows what may
Yeah, but who knows what may have happened to people she came in contact with? Maids, dry cleaners, favorite restaurants etc in another country. Someone was probably suspected as a source of some sort. Not to mention it was politically motivated, the White House was trying to discredit her husband.
So in that case, Dave, the
So in that case, Dave, the case can be made that she made it worse by putting her face all over TV.
True enough, and you could
True enough, and you could add that Manning has put people in danger by leaking memos with names of foreign nationals who were helping us. The US government is not altruistic either. Hell, they've let yours and my Navy brothers die. USS Liberty, USS Pueblo, USS Stark. It just proves that nobody is perfect. The US government is too secretive and arrogant.
Well I'm happy for you Peter
Well I'm happy for you Peter I was In the Gulf during Desert Storm as well, I was a GMM1 Serving on the USS Fulton which was servicing the sub launched Tomahawks. Besides my watches with FireControl and my regular watches pretty much like your described (by the way they were called Daioh....so you were close)I was sent over many times to the LST of our Battle group to land land tanks as I had quals on 20mm and 3in guns. On the 20 I had to shoot several small opposing gunboats so I havent "almost" killed I have. I dont like discussing it either and I find your braggadocio pretty much the opposite of most who have done their duty. I am as proud as anyone of my service, but it doesn't mean any of us can or will "kill" in fact most of my comrades respect life all the more.
So behind the keyboard or in front of it you still seem to be talking alot.... Filling in a stereotype rather than being geniune.
Forgive the mispellings, just
Forgive the mispellings, just came in from shoveling.
What stereotype? And CM's
What stereotype? And CM's post is what I
was talking about.
ET3
All the chest pounding aside,
All the chest pounding aside, the bottom line is: PFC Manning is in the active military and will be judged by the laws of the Unified Code of Military Justice. In extreme cases can be harsh and exacting. I, for one, would not mind to see this traitor tied to a post and executed for Treason. If not, he is looking at 52 years to contemplate his actions in Leavanworth Federal Prison.
LOL Tp your right about that
LOL Tp your right about that and if under the UCMJ he is found guilty he could recieve that punishment. He committed this act in a theater of conflict so it's an option that could be brought to bear.