I'm still confused on why this is an issue...I served in the Army with people who were gay, straight, of different religions and ethnicities. What does it matter if someone wants to serve their country? The important part is that they do.
This is something that can wait another 10 years. Military life is full of ridicule. So why create more reason for that ridicule. And if you think they won't face any regardless of and rules put in place, you live in a bubble.
I'm confused as well, Laura. The Defense Dept completed it's survey and found that 70% of current service members would have no problem serving with gay people. It's just a bunch of old fart Generals and Senators who are fighting it. Why should they care if the people who actually are living in barracks or on board a ship with their peers are OK with it? I'll answer my own question, it's one more form of control the statists will have to relinquish.
Dave,
Over 66% of the military did not even respond to the survey.
Of the ones that did, those that live off base or in family housing and not in barracks supported ending the policy. But the change did not receive a lot of support with the ones who live in the barracks or in units in the field. And the Chief of the Air Force and Marines have expressed concerns.
Barracks housing seems to be the biggest concern I have heard of. This housing issue might be worked out, but before we see how, I'd wait.
Here is a short list of countries who ALLOW gays to serve openly:
Israel
UK
Spain
Norway
New Zealand
Russia
Serbia
South Africa
Sweden
Switzerland
Poland
Romania
The Netherlands
Luxemburg
Ireland
Italy
and MANY MORE civilized countries!
Here is a sample of the countries who DO NOT ALLOW gays to serve openly:
Iran
North Korea
China
Saudi Arabia
Pakistan
Jamaica
Cuba
Kenya
Nigeria
(insert any other hostile country here)
But the fact is gays HAVE been serving in the various military branches for decades...The different branches have handled racial intergration differently. At one time the same discussions/arguements took place on whether whites and blacks should serve together or separately...
Posted by Dave Olsen on December 9, 2010 - 10:03am
....I'll answer my own question, it's one more form of control the statists will have to relinquish
Posted by Julie A Pappalardo on December 9, 2010 - 10:30am
Here is a sample of the countries who DO NOT ALLOW gays to serve openly:
Iran
North Korea
China
Saudi Arabia
Pakistan
Jamaica
Cuba
Kenya
Nigeria
(insert any other hostile country here)
and
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA....
Shameful!
Shameful!
Posted by Laura Russell Ricci on December 9, 2010 - 10:38am
But the fact is gays HAVE been serving in the various military branches for decades...The different branches have handled racial intergration differently. At one time the same discussions/arguements took place on whether whites and blacks should serve together or separately...
I served in the army with men and women that were well known to be gay. It didn't prevent myself of anyone else, least of all them, from doing their jobs.
People who have a problem with this, have a problem with people being gay, regardless of where it's at. Plain and simple. Don't try and sell me on unit readiness, or morale or any BS one liner that has floated the past 15 years since DADT arrived. It's a thinly veiled excuse at predjudice.
It's a volunteer force. Who you bed at night has nothing to do with the sacrifice you may make(or have made).
Marines will never accept this , nor should they . Close quaters with someone that might be attracted to you is obsurd , we don't need more distractions . If we are going to open this up ,then there is no need for seperate bathhouses either . My point is there is a need for Gays or anyone else that wants to join the military but there needs to be a different set of Barracks . Gay men with straight women and vice - versa . Probably not going to happen that way , but that is why it is hard to say its all right to do . I can't say I would feel comfortable with no privacy in a bath room pissing next to a gay guy , just the same if a women was next to me , but if I didn't know he was gay or I didn't know it was women then I wouldn't feel uncomfortable .
When were you in the Marines? The days of 45 man bays are quickly leaving (if not gone except for training). Barracks are defined as 1 plus 1 now. Meaning roomate.
From personal experience, The "Barracks" are now buildings, much like college dorms that have all genders in them.
I also find this a laughable statement: I can't say I would feel comfortable with no privacy in a bath room pissing next to a gay guy.
Really? Do you think beacuse you're gay, you're automatically a pervert? Do you think they'll peek over and ask you out to dinner if they like what they see? And if they don't they'll write all over the stalls about how you lack to measure up?
Tom--clearly you don't know a lot of people that are gay. Gay men and women don't hit on people that aren't gay as well. So sharing a barracks with someone that is gay isn't an issue. The issue is that people aren't open minded enough to except that it's the 21st century. A gay's life is in more danger than a straight military members because they became a target as soon as they came out. Do you really believe that there aren't any gay's in the military now? If you do your homophobia is blocking you from facing the facts of life. How do you know that the guy "pissing" next to you at favorite local restaurant isn't gay or how about your family doctor?? They don't wear signs.
My husband is a Marine Corp veteran from the 70's. He ran a communications unit and I remember it like it was yesterday. The unit was like a family. Because most of the guys were single and my husband and I lived off base we often times invited the entire "comm shack" (six guys) over for Sunday dinners and a day of football so they could get out of the barracks.
One guy in the unit ended up sharing that he was gay. I'm sure it was agonizing for him to share this with his fellow Marines, but he did. I can tell you it never changed a thing -- even back then. His hometown was in Pa and he was an avid hunter. I remember him fondly for bringing back venison and a recipe for a venison stew that I used to make for all of them. Maybe this was an exceptionally accepting group, but I tend to believe that in a military unit these guys trust each other and sexuality is the last thing on their minds.
I'm happy to see the poll results. We're making progress with equality even here in Genesee County. I hope it passes!
According to Thomas' logic, we shouldn't let women serve either...or at least they shouldn't be allowed to tell us they're women or there may be an issue with sexual attraction in close quarters.
There's an old saying: 'There are no atheists in foxholes.' Well, there isn't any gay sex either.
This is absolutely about people's personal feelings toward gays. Just like way back in America's dark age when the military wasn't racially integrated, certain people were resistant to serving with a person of a different race due to their own ignorance and bigotry. The same tired arguments were used and eventually we stopped being so stupid.
Now it's time for us to stop being stupid about DADT. Gay men aren't going to rape you because they saw you with your shirt off and, let's be honest here, it's the gay men that everyone seems to have a problem with. I don't ever see any of the machismo driven gay haters bitching about lesbians.
John, you're right it was about 66% non-return rate, I found it. They sent out about 200,000 to active duty, 200,000 to reserves and Nat. Guard and 80,000 to spouses (approx. #'s) According to Sec. Gates they got back 115,052 from service members, 44,266 from spouses and another 72,000 online respondents (no break down of that #) Anyway, you're right. I'd say that the people who didn't send their surveys back mostly don't care, you'd think that if they were opposed to repealing DADT, they'd voice their preference. Which supports repealing it.
A question to the ignorant homophobes.
If you feel they should be discriminated against in joining the military are they still obligated to help pay for it?
We can count on Senator's Schumer and Gillibrand to vote to repeal, but if you want to give their offices a call to let them know that you support links are below.
I served in the Air Force in the early 1980s with at least one gay man. We shared a barracks when I first arrived at Vandenberg AFB. Never any problems.
Later, he was busted for marijuana possession. He was in the jail where I was a guard, sleeping and showering in an open bay area with five or six other men, some of whom weren't the nicest guys.
No problems. His being gay was never an issue.
And that wasn't why he was eventually given an administrative discharge. Drugs did him in, just like 90 percent of the criminals I dealt with either as a cop or a guard.
LEAKED EMAIL: Fox boss caught slanting news reporting
December 09, 2010 7:31 am ET by Ben Dimiero
At the height of the health care reform debate last fall, Bill Sammon, Fox News' controversial Washington managing editor, sent a memo directing his network's journalists not to use the phrase "public option."
People , chill out , If I was the only one that feels like this then why would this be an issue . How would I know someone is Gay , ah ,da this is about serving openly . Also how does a Gay guy know if someone else isn't gay . They make a pass at him and find out real quick that he is or isn't. So ,Phil this isn't about me , like I said there is a place in the military for everyone but there needs to be a change in the way the military does things if there is going to be open knowledge of who is or isn't Gay .My question to everyone is , Do you think there are more Gay people now than from 20years ago , or was it hidden in the past but same level . Once again , ask any Marine ,Gay or not and they will all say leave it the way it is . This is not saying that they are or arn't for it but just to leave it alone because they like the way it is now . I would bet if it were up to only the service men and women to vote on this , it would stay the the way it is .
Chris , You don't read very well . My logic is that activly serving Marines want to keep it the way it is . I also said there was a place for everyone that wants to serve .
Lori , great story and I am sure there are more out there , but I doubt the commanding officers knew that someone was gay in the group . It would be interested if the these guys involved would have treated your friend differently if they knew he was gay before they befriended him .
Once again I think there is a spot in the military for anyone that wants to serve no matter who they are or where they come from or what sex they like .
I am not a basher , just someone who thinks old school ideology served this country right and that our country tends to change for the worse . If gays servung boosts our ability to serve Democracy and protect us from the worlds hostile countries , I am all for it .
Why is it that hetero's (that goes for women as well) seem to think that EVERY gay person in the world MUST be attracted to THEM??? Really??!! Don't flatter yourselves!
And shouldn't military people be focusing on (insert conflict here) instead of sex at all? How can anyone even THINK about sex when being SHOT AT???
Here is a scenario that currently happens now:
Service member A has a same sex partner (we'll call the partner B)
A and B have a couple of kids (yes, gay people have kids together!). Service member A gets sent to (insert some country we shouldn't even be in here) and is killed on the battlefield.
Because B doesn't exist in the eyes of the military, B is never informed of Servicemember A's death, can't get the folded flag at the funeral, no deaath benefit for the family (the kids and partner remember?) that the hetero's all enjoy. How is B supposed to pay the mortgage etc????
This is cruel and discriminatory. If servicemember A had been a hetero, then the spouse would be informed, get the flag and all the other benefits for the family.
I won't even get into the "whitch hunt" factor that DADT started......So, someone knows you are gay, you get in an arguement about something, they OUT the gay person......The gay person LOSES THEIR JOB.....JUST for being gay....
Dave,
I know a number of people who got the survey and didn't send it in. Some didn't care about the issue and others just don't answer surveys because they don't trust it will not come back and haunt them.
You made a comment about how you would not feel comfortable pissing next to a gay guy, so you did make it about you. Also, I just talked to three of my co-workers who have been and still are Marines, they couldn't care or have cared less. Great quote from my buddy, Chris (edited for the family):
"If someone's coming at me with murder in their eyes and I'm down, I don't give a $#%@ who you ^&*% at night, I care that you do your job and save my @$$."
Chris served in Iraq by the way...with gay people!!! The horror.
Look I don't mean to make light of this, but a lot less people care this then you think. The problem is that it's the narrow-minded hypocritical know it all's that seem to have the power. How many war vets do you see on Congress/Senate/President?
Also to Julie:
Why is it that hetero's (that goes for women as well) seem to think that EVERY gay person in the world MUST be attracted to THEM??? Really??!! Don't flatter yourselves!
Damn woman that made me laugh so hard! You are awesome, just for that line. It is so accurate. Every homophobic person I know uses this as their number 1 line of defense. Pure gold.
Most people partition sexuality from non-sexual activity. This is certainly true in the workplace where sexual harassment is grounds for dismissal. I understand that the military has odd ideas about sexual behavior in its prisons (between guards and prisoners); I assumed these were isolated cases.
While using public facilities, I do not consider the sexual orientation of other facility users (nor do I assume others are scrutinizing mine). ...Even after revelations about Republican Senators from Idaho and their airport restroom footwork. Most people do not look for dates in the bathroom. (See first paragraph)
DADT is a white gown for those who know better. It is also last outpost for those with no legal basis to exempt gays who cling to notions of military decorum to uphold a toothless campaign.
Julie , You make some good points . But unlike yourself who is in love with your partner , many are not . Some would marry just for the benefits . The hetro's do it now (not condoning this )to gain more benefits . i persnaly was invited to wedding of two 20years olds . One of the two were in the reserves and yes they had talked about marriage in the future but by no way were ready for marriage . The day it was announced that he was getting shipped to Afganastan , they also announced he was getting Married and she was going to get pregnant . You do not even want to know why they did this , but I bet you can guess . They divorced 6 months after he returned home . Should they have to reimburse the Government . By the way everuone hoprs one day they find someone special , in order to that one has to search out who they like . I may think someone likes me but is not atrracted to me , that is human nature . So if a straight person is attracted to me , then you would think a gay person might be as well . It's not out of the question to think a gay person might hit on a straight person on mistake . By the way Julie , there is down time for smilitary personell when not getting shot at . Soldiers are not always under fire nor on a mission all the time . Supprisingly a lot meet future partners for life in the military , thus were thinking about sex .
Peace to as well and yes i agree , we shouldn't be there to begin with .
Marriage shouldn't happen for benefits , that could be the reson why our country is sliding down hill .
How about this , eliminate all benefits for being Married , and open it up for everyone to get married based on love . Wouldn't that be Grand!!!!
Phil , The quote from your buddies is right on the money for instance of in battle situation . Unfortunate this was to curb the issue when entering the military of how they would be treated or what they did when they were in . Your buddies will never disclose what really happened when they were in nor should they. Also the are marines , but they are not active or else the wouldn't be your co-workers . As far as Chris goes , I am kind of sick of hearing that he was in the Iraq war , and now he served with gays , who cares if he served with gays . He probably served with more than he knows . Why do we have to know who is or isn't Gay .
Thomas:"Why do we have to know who is or isn't Gay ." We don't which is exactly why the DADT law should be repealed.
Julie: "Why is it that hetero's (that goes for women as well) seem to think that EVERY gay person in the world MUST be attracted to THEM??? Really??!! Don't flatter yourselves!" I am heterosexual and don't think that way, never did. Please don't stereotype. I agree with you about the marriage benefits.
BTW, I met & married my wife while we were both on active duty.
That's the thing, we don't. It shouldn't matter. You seem to think that getting rid of DADT means that gay service members will be walking around base wearing signs.
This is about making it no big deal because it isn't a big deal. Gay men are looking for other gay men and gay women don't want men at all. Their personal lives don't affect anyone else's personal life. At least not to any greater extent than your co-worker's lives affect yours now.
I think we're doing our country a great disservice by discriminating against citizens who want to serve.
I would just like to point out that the Israeli defense forces allow gays and lesbians to serve openly. They are also second only to the US military in terms of lethality.
Anyone ever heard of the IDF ever having unit cohesion or image problems?
Chris , I don't seem to think that at all . Your understanding of the English Language is about as good as your prices on everyday pots and pans . I thought I made it clear that I am for anyone to join the military if they want to .Chris you seem to knowa lot about nothing . I guess you would be a good politician . Why is it that evryone who served in the Iraq war thinks they are a politician , you and Bellavia should join forces on the same ballot.
Like you didn't know who I was refering to.Well Chris , Actually he is a real jerk , very arrogant and cocky . I couldn't stand listening to him 5 min .The funny thing , he is just a poster boy . There were many other men involved in that fight that didn't want the reconition but not him , he jumped out and told his version of what happened and painted a pretty picture for himself. Find a guy who served with him and he will tell you the same . Actually you guys are a lot alike , I really do think you should team up with him .
I think that you confused my friend, Chris with Mr. Charvella. Not the case, but let me say this...whether you served in WWII, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Kosovo, Afghanistan or Iraq...it is more then what most would have the courage for.
My point (And a lot of others) is that it should not matter what you sexual orientation is to serve our nation.
We are a varied people. We are immigrants. We are white, black and brown. We are gay and straight. We are rich and we are poor. But one thing that we have in common is that we are free.
We are free because those who served and died gave us that right. And death sir doesn't care about your race, your wealth or whom you bed at night.
If a Solider, Airman, Seaman or Marine are strong enough to stand and fight, then they're strong enough to do so with a homosexual next to them in line.
Actually, I didn't know who he was. I googled him and that's what came up.
I do know this, you don't get recommended for those medals based on your own account of things that happened. He may not receive any of them, but simply writing and submitting the paperwork for that sort of award is a process that requires tons of investigation, and supporting evidence from the people who were there.
Julie, don't flatter your self with that stereo type. I never thought that way.
I have added a paper I wrote last spring for my political science class at GCC.
Thomas, there are quite a few Marines active and former that share my opinion. Granted there are also those that share your opinion. You see that I gave credit to people whose opinion that I may not personally agree with.
C.M., what did the post you made early about the fox news guy have to do with this thread? In regard to the fox news post though, how many people have smeared the reputation of the New York time for unethical journalistic practices. You didn't come across as a mud slinger before so why start now?
Jeremiah J. Pedro
Professor C. Scruggs
Pos-105-51
7 April 2010
Don’t Ask Don’t Tell
The military is a unique subculture in American society. It is comprised of people from all walks of life. You will find people from wealthy families, poor families, all races, every state and territory of the union and many countries from around the world. Diversity abounds in the ranks with the exception of sexual preference. That is to say members of the United States Armed Forces are forbidden from serving as a uniformed member while maintaining an openly gay lifestyle.
When something is different people naturally tend to fear it. Whatever it may be the color of someone’s skin, their country of origin, their Ideas, or their sexual preference. The military is not free of this type of behavior. The military has discriminated against many groups in the past, such as the segregation of African-American troops from the time of the Civil War all the way through to World War II, and the segregation of the Japanese-Americans who were eager to serve American during World War II. At present the main group that faces such discrimination is those that identify themselves as Gay or Lesbian. Since 1992 the United States Military has had a policy known as “Don’t ask don’t tell.” The policy effectively forbids the Military from asking members or applicants of the United States Armed forces what their sexual orientation is. At the same time the Military forbids members or applicants of the United States Armed Forces to say they are gay or engage in same sex relationships. If the service member is caught or turned in for engaging in a homosexual relationship they are subject to separation from the Armed Forces. The policy does in essence allow closeted gays to serve.
This policy has been staunchly defended by high ranking members from all branches of the military and the United States Government. It is said that to allow gays to serve openly would destroy troop morale and unit cohesion. Some people even fear that they will have gay troops hitting on straight troops in the fighting holes. A lot of these opinions I find ridiculous. I think the dishonest behaviors that service members subject to this policy are forced to engage in are by far more destructive to unit cohesion and troop morale. It is time that Military learns from their history of discriminatory practices. It is time that Americans who have an alternative sexual preference are allowed to serve their country with honor.
One can only guess at how much money is wasted by the Armed Forces with investigations into the sexual behaviors of members. The subsequent court martial proceedings and the money wasted in training the individuals who are eventually kicked out due to their sexual preference. Some members have served for many years before being caught. And there are many more that have been successfully able to hide their sexual behavior long enough to reach retirement.
Currently there is a push by opponents to the “Don’t ask don’t tell policy” to have the policy repealed. This is due to promises made by the Obama administration during his election bid and the most recent State of the Union address. Some of these groups have grown frustrated with the President claiming he is not living up to promises made. But you must keep in mind, Commander in chief or not, Mr. Obama faces a Pentagon that is more defiant than they are reluctant to repeal the policy.
Some people say that recruiting efforts would be hurt by allowing Gay or Lesbians to serve openly. How is that going to hurt? Will people who have such a hate for those that are different from them refuse to enlist out of protest? Well I say good riddance. That would be a solid step in the right direction for a truly diverse volunteer Military.
I served on active duty in the United States Marine Corps for thirteen years. Eleven of those thirteen years I served as a Non-commissioned Officer. I was in a position where I was responsible for not only mission accomplishment but troop welfare as well. One of the most important characteristics that I looked for in my Marines was honesty. I wanted them to be honest with themselves, their fellow Marines and with me as well. I could personally care less if that Marine liked boys, girls or both so long as they did their job to the best of their ability. When it comes down to it the person’s sexual orientation will not prevent an infantryman from pulling a trigger, an administrator from typing a document, a cook from making a meal, or a General from issuing a command. It is far past time for the Military to set the example for American society. Now they have to add this sad chapter to their history as they have in the past with other cases of discrimination.
Thomas, my husband is a Marine. He isn't called "no neck" for nothing. He's one of the toughest guys I have ever known. While in the Corp he accumulated a good share of meritorious awards and field promotions for accomplishing the missions serving alongside an equally tough gay Marine. He didn't care if he served with a gay guy in 1978 and he absolutely doesn't care now.
LOL Laurie a true embodiment of a Marine.....OOOOO Raaaagh.
Just to clarify, not sure what part of the Navy other "People" served in but the Navy I served in didn't give a rats ass about someone orientation. Like the Marines what we cared about was ablility to do the job.
MAybe it's time if the Govt wants to go this way for the Military that we should begin to look at legislation dealing with homosexual senators and congressmen as well?
Jeremiah, the Fox News post greeted me on AOL this morning. I used to post things I found interesting in my blog. H ignores most of what I find interesting, so I added it to the thread. You may consider that mudslinging. If I were to sling anything, maybe pies. Frankly, I wouldn't know what to sling at Fox News. I've never watched Fox News. The only television I watch, movies without commercials.
Posted by Thomas Mooney on December 9, 2010 - 11:32am
Marines will never accept this , nor should they . Close quaters with someone that might be attracted to you is obsurd , we don't need more distractions.
Tom, you sound like a homophobe to the extreme. Gays are attracted to other gays and they wouldn't waste their time with someone who isn't gay, seriously.
You, as you put it, "piss" next to gay or bi men every day if you work around enough people. Do you honestly think they're trying to peep your junk? Do you think you're that attractive to a gay/bi man?
I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about. I've worked with guys like you who say the silliest things such as "I don't care if there's a gay guy on our crew as long as he keeps his hands to himself!" If you could actually hear how lame and ignorant that sounds, you wouldn't have the attitude that you do.
I don't think you're pretty enough or have the type of personality to pique the interest of a gay man so rest assured, you're in the clear.
Posted by Lorie Longhany on December 9, 2010 - 4:40pm
Thomas, my husband is a Marine. He isn't called "no neck" for nothing. He's one of the toughest guys I have ever known. While in the Corp he accumulated a good share of meritorious awards and field promotions for accomplishing the missions serving alongside an equally tough gay Marine. He didn't care if he served with a gay guy in 1978 and he absolutely doesn't care now.
Lori, your husband is a real man, comfortable in his own leather skin..haha! Please tell him I said "thank you" for defending my freedom and for being able to think logically. He sounds like a man's man and a family man.
Thomas Mooney, now that I've had a chance to read more of your posts in this thread, do you have a drinking problem? Having worked side by side with alcoholics, straight and gay, your train of thought and sentence composition reflects impairment...just sayin'...just wondering...
The defense appropriation bill was filibustered yesterday so for now it's done. I did hear last night that there is talk of a procedural maneuver that will enable a stand alone bill to be introduced just on the repeal of DADT. If it isn't introduced before the end of the year it surely has no chance in the next congress and will languish until more representatives either change their heart or listen to the majority of the people that want this changed.
Doug, your absolutely right. He is my hero. Thank you for the kind words about my husband. And even though it's morning "Good night Chesty Puller, wherever you are".
Lorie,
You forgot to mention that your hubby is one of the nicest, thoughtful, and understanding guys on this planet. (ahem, he didn't pay me to say that).
If this poll is any indication of the "will of the people", then the GOP is more out of step than I thought they were.
They ran on doing the "will of the people". What happen?
C.M., if you tag anything you post "blogs" it will sow up in the blogs section automatically.
We don't much put non-local stuff on the home page any more.
So that's what the "blogs" section was created for ... for anybody to post something they want to talk about that isn't necessarily going to make it to the home page.
Bea, I've lost my faith in both major parties. Each has seemed to have lost their way. No matter who is in an elected position, they're supposed to carry out the will of the majority that placed them there. They're not supposed to just willy-nilly do whatever the hell they please after they get into office, which is exactly what both parties do now. They're supposed to "represent." The whole political arena has become a bloated, corrupt, self serving entity that overwhelms any opposition trying to control it.
I love to drink !! I miss BackHoes . I drank a lot there right across from Julie and Deb and I never had a problem with either one of them . I also have a friend who is gay . So how is it that I am a Homaphobe ? I am against DADT for the reason of we don't need to know and that is it . The rest might be the beer yesterday and the fact that I was bored and wanted to stir some emotions to see what people thought .
"I voted no because of my experience in the Navy. The gay woman I knew couldn't emotionally handle a discussion on Osama shortly after 9/11 because it was her against me and another guy."
I just don't even get what that means......(shrug)
Thomas said:
"You make some good points . But unlike yourself who is in love with your partner , many are not . Some would marry just for the benefits . The hetro's do it now (not condoning this )to gain more benefits . i personally was invited to wedding of two 20years olds . One of the two were in the reserves and yes they had talked about marriage in the future but by no way were ready for marriage . The day it was announced that he was getting shipped to Afganastan , they also announced he was getting Married and she was going to get pregnant . You do not even want to know why they did this , but I bet you can guess . They divorced 6 months after he returned home . Should they have to reimburse the Government"
Are you trying to say that gay people...... other than me and Deb don't love each other? Those 20 year olds prolly WERE in love.................... for the moment (we've all been THERE right?)....WE should be able to make the same horrid mistakes!!! People get married for the benefits, it doesn't have to do with religion. If it WAS a religious thing, then you wouldn't have to get a license from the State.
Does anyone else find it odd that you need a license to get married (which doesn't even mean anything if you are allowed to get divorced), a license to have a dog, a license to drive a car (which is a weapon) but you DON'T need a license to have children! What's up with THAT??!! People should have to pass a test (and a psych evaluation).......
Back to the topic at hand (sorry for the rant)
OK, Thomas, let me see if I got this correct. And, let me be clear here, I am NOT attacking you:
It's OK for gays to serve, but it's NOT OK for them to tell anyone they are gay. right? And you know me and Deb. And don't forget to add my Step Daughter into this.......... Here is a scenario:
Off to the land of Make Believe;
Pretend........I am in the Marines ( they have the coolest uniforms :). It's Holiday time, and I am invited to (insert Military holiday party here). EVERYONE else can bring their partner/spouse/even a date, except for me. I can't bring Deb with me because she doesn't exist to them. Do I go and just leave her home :( Do I not go:(
here are some more:
I am at work....in my cool uniform.....While chatting it up with my colleagues, everyone starts talking about their kids and their accomplishments and how much they miss them. They have pictures of their kids with them etc. I can have no pic of my kid, because if anyone finds out....I LOSE MY JOB..... MINE is about to get her Master's Degree (she REALLY IS BTW)......But I can't tell anyone :(
I'll LOSE MY JOB!
One morning I get in an argument with some straight chick in my unit about: Why the Beatles are THE greatest rock band ever, and they changed music forever, and whoever her favorite band is SUCKS! ALL she has to do to ruin my life is tell some higher up that I am gay.....and BAM! I LOSE MY JOB!!!
Now I get killed in some horrible 3rd world country.......Deb doesn't get notified, my Stepdaughter doesn't get notified, invited to my funeral or any of the other respect that war widows (for lack of a better word) get. Neither does my Stepdaughter (who refers to me as one of her Moms). Deb also gets no benefits which makes it so she can't pay the mortgage on the house. Now she loses her wife AND her home.
Our gay service members live in a constant state of fear that if they, use the wrong pronoun, or slip up talking about their beloved, piss someone off, they will lose their CAREER!
How can our men and women fight when they are constantly worried about losing their JOB???
For the people who took offense to my "why do hetero's think that ALL gay people want THEM"
For every one of you, there are 2 ignorant haters (which would be the people i was refering to).
The funny part is that as soon as the ignorant haters get a few drinks in them, they start getting flirty and touchy with the gayest person near them LOL!!!
Sigh......everyone just needs to go listen to "Imagine"
Julie , Great points but I am not married but love my girlfriend just like a wife . I too don't get the whole license deal . I also have had situations where spouse was invited and not my girlfriend og 10 years (we also have a child) . I didn't forget about your stepdaughter (she is an adult ) so I excluded her . I just wanted to make a point I have no problem with gay , lesbians or anyone else unless they have a problem with me .
To clarify the serving openly , my point is , it is the choice of the individuale not the government to make it public knowledge just as it is mine to the same as a hetro .
Now the deal with someone using being gay against you to get you fired is just wrong . So there needs to be no law at all , just drop the whole thing and treat everyone equall . the whole sexual thing should be like asking how much money you make . Its not illegal to ask but it is up to the individule to answer how they want.
By the wat , i always thought you looked like a bad ass military chick in the camo jacket . And yes you may be gay but I thought you were cute as with Deb regaurdless if I had a shot a picking you up .
Tom Said: "Now the deal with someone using being gay against you to get you fired is just wrong . So there needs to be no law at all , just drop the whole thing and treat everyone equall"
Therefore DADT SHOULD be repealed because it should be a non issue :)
OH, and BTW, my hunting camo is SO much more fun then the boring OLD camo I used to wear at the bar!
I'm still confused on why
I'm still confused on why this is an issue...I served in the Army with people who were gay, straight, of different religions and ethnicities. What does it matter if someone wants to serve their country? The important part is that they do.
I voted no because of my
I voted no because of my experience in the Navy.
This is something that can wait another 10 years. Military life is full of ridicule. So why create more reason for that ridicule. And if you think they won't face any regardless of and rules put in place, you live in a bubble.
I'm confused as well, Laura.
I'm confused as well, Laura. The Defense Dept completed it's survey and found that 70% of current service members would have no problem serving with gay people. It's just a bunch of old fart Generals and Senators who are fighting it. Why should they care if the people who actually are living in barracks or on board a ship with their peers are OK with it? I'll answer my own question, it's one more form of control the statists will have to relinquish.
Dave, Over 66% of the
Dave,
Over 66% of the military did not even respond to the survey.
Of the ones that did, those that live off base or in family housing and not in barracks supported ending the policy. But the change did not receive a lot of support with the ones who live in the barracks or in units in the field. And the Chief of the Air Force and Marines have expressed concerns.
Barracks housing seems to be the biggest concern I have heard of. This housing issue might be worked out, but before we see how, I'd wait.
Here is a short list of
Here is a short list of countries who ALLOW gays to serve openly:
Israel
UK
Spain
Norway
New Zealand
Russia
Serbia
South Africa
Sweden
Switzerland
Poland
Romania
The Netherlands
Luxemburg
Ireland
Italy
and MANY MORE civilized countries!
Here is a sample of the countries who DO NOT ALLOW gays to serve openly:
Iran
North Korea
China
Saudi Arabia
Pakistan
Jamaica
Cuba
Kenya
Nigeria
(insert any other hostile country here)
and
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA....
Shameful!
Shameful!
But the fact is gays HAVE
But the fact is gays HAVE been serving in the various military branches for decades...The different branches have handled racial intergration differently. At one time the same discussions/arguements took place on whether whites and blacks should serve together or separately...
Posted by Dave Olsen on
Posted by Dave Olsen on December 9, 2010 - 10:03am
....I'll answer my own question, it's one more form of control the statists will have to relinquish
Posted by Julie A Pappalardo on December 9, 2010 - 10:30am
Here is a sample of the countries who DO NOT ALLOW gays to serve openly:
Iran
North Korea
China
Saudi Arabia
Pakistan
Jamaica
Cuba
Kenya
Nigeria
(insert any other hostile country here)
and
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA....
Shameful!
Shameful!
Posted by Laura Russell Ricci on December 9, 2010 - 10:38am
But the fact is gays HAVE been serving in the various military branches for decades...The different branches have handled racial intergration differently. At one time the same discussions/arguements took place on whether whites and blacks should serve together or separately...
Well said. Kudos to you all.
John, where did you get your
John, where did you get your numbers from? I don't have the time or inclination to read the whole thing, but a casual run through didn't tell me the percentage of respondents.
http://www.defense.gov/home/features/2010/0610_gatesdadt/Vol%201%20Find…
This is a non issue. I
This is a non issue.
I served in the army with men and women that were well known to be gay. It didn't prevent myself of anyone else, least of all them, from doing their jobs.
People who have a problem with this, have a problem with people being gay, regardless of where it's at. Plain and simple. Don't try and sell me on unit readiness, or morale or any BS one liner that has floated the past 15 years since DADT arrived. It's a thinly veiled excuse at predjudice.
It's a volunteer force. Who you bed at night has nothing to do with the sacrifice you may make(or have made).
Posted by Phil Ricci on
Posted by Phil Ricci on December 9, 2010 - 11:07am
This is a non issue.
Good grief, once in a while we really agree on something :)
Marines will never accept
Marines will never accept this , nor should they . Close quaters with someone that might be attracted to you is obsurd , we don't need more distractions . If we are going to open this up ,then there is no need for seperate bathhouses either . My point is there is a need for Gays or anyone else that wants to join the military but there needs to be a different set of Barracks . Gay men with straight women and vice - versa . Probably not going to happen that way , but that is why it is hard to say its all right to do . I can't say I would feel comfortable with no privacy in a bath room pissing next to a gay guy , just the same if a women was next to me , but if I didn't know he was gay or I didn't know it was women then I wouldn't feel uncomfortable .
It happens from time to time,
It happens from time to time, Bea. ;-)
Thomas, When were you in the
Thomas,
When were you in the Marines? The days of 45 man bays are quickly leaving (if not gone except for training). Barracks are defined as 1 plus 1 now. Meaning roomate.
Here look: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/l/bldormitories.htm
From personal experience, The "Barracks" are now buildings, much like college dorms that have all genders in them.
I also find this a laughable statement: I can't say I would feel comfortable with no privacy in a bath room pissing next to a gay guy.
Really? Do you think beacuse you're gay, you're automatically a pervert? Do you think they'll peek over and ask you out to dinner if they like what they see? And if they don't they'll write all over the stalls about how you lack to measure up?
That's just sad.
Tom--clearly you don't know a
Tom--clearly you don't know a lot of people that are gay. Gay men and women don't hit on people that aren't gay as well. So sharing a barracks with someone that is gay isn't an issue. The issue is that people aren't open minded enough to except that it's the 21st century. A gay's life is in more danger than a straight military members because they became a target as soon as they came out. Do you really believe that there aren't any gay's in the military now? If you do your homophobia is blocking you from facing the facts of life. How do you know that the guy "pissing" next to you at favorite local restaurant isn't gay or how about your family doctor?? They don't wear signs.
My husband is a Marine Corp
My husband is a Marine Corp veteran from the 70's. He ran a communications unit and I remember it like it was yesterday. The unit was like a family. Because most of the guys were single and my husband and I lived off base we often times invited the entire "comm shack" (six guys) over for Sunday dinners and a day of football so they could get out of the barracks.
One guy in the unit ended up sharing that he was gay. I'm sure it was agonizing for him to share this with his fellow Marines, but he did. I can tell you it never changed a thing -- even back then. His hometown was in Pa and he was an avid hunter. I remember him fondly for bringing back venison and a recipe for a venison stew that I used to make for all of them. Maybe this was an exceptionally accepting group, but I tend to believe that in a military unit these guys trust each other and sexuality is the last thing on their minds.
I'm happy to see the poll results. We're making progress with equality even here in Genesee County. I hope it passes!
According to Thomas' logic,
According to Thomas' logic, we shouldn't let women serve either...or at least they shouldn't be allowed to tell us they're women or there may be an issue with sexual attraction in close quarters.
There's an old saying: 'There are no atheists in foxholes.' Well, there isn't any gay sex either.
This is absolutely about people's personal feelings toward gays. Just like way back in America's dark age when the military wasn't racially integrated, certain people were resistant to serving with a person of a different race due to their own ignorance and bigotry. The same tired arguments were used and eventually we stopped being so stupid.
Now it's time for us to stop being stupid about DADT. Gay men aren't going to rape you because they saw you with your shirt off and, let's be honest here, it's the gay men that everyone seems to have a problem with. I don't ever see any of the machismo driven gay haters bitching about lesbians.
John, you're right it was
John, you're right it was about 66% non-return rate, I found it. They sent out about 200,000 to active duty, 200,000 to reserves and Nat. Guard and 80,000 to spouses (approx. #'s) According to Sec. Gates they got back 115,052 from service members, 44,266 from spouses and another 72,000 online respondents (no break down of that #) Anyway, you're right. I'd say that the people who didn't send their surveys back mostly don't care, you'd think that if they were opposed to repealing DADT, they'd voice their preference. Which supports repealing it.
A question to the ignorant
A question to the ignorant homophobes.
If you feel they should be discriminated against in joining the military are they still obligated to help pay for it?
We can count on Senator's
We can count on Senator's Schumer and Gillibrand to vote to repeal, but if you want to give their offices a call to let them know that you support links are below.
http://schumer.senate.gov/new_website/contact.cfm
http://gillibrand.senate.gov/contact/
Waiting after the lame duck will certainly mean that this will not be repealed so getting the message to them is very important.
I served in the Air Force in
I served in the Air Force in the early 1980s with at least one gay man. We shared a barracks when I first arrived at Vandenberg AFB. Never any problems.
Later, he was busted for marijuana possession. He was in the jail where I was a guard, sleeping and showering in an open bay area with five or six other men, some of whom weren't the nicest guys.
No problems. His being gay was never an issue.
And that wasn't why he was eventually given an administrative discharge. Drugs did him in, just like 90 percent of the criminals I dealt with either as a cop or a guard.
LEAKED EMAIL: Fox boss caught
LEAKED EMAIL: Fox boss caught slanting news reporting
December 09, 2010 7:31 am ET by Ben Dimiero
At the height of the health care reform debate last fall, Bill Sammon, Fox News' controversial Washington managing editor, sent a memo directing his network's journalists not to use the phrase "public option."
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201012090003
People , chill out , If I was
People , chill out , If I was the only one that feels like this then why would this be an issue . How would I know someone is Gay , ah ,da this is about serving openly . Also how does a Gay guy know if someone else isn't gay . They make a pass at him and find out real quick that he is or isn't. So ,Phil this isn't about me , like I said there is a place in the military for everyone but there needs to be a change in the way the military does things if there is going to be open knowledge of who is or isn't Gay .My question to everyone is , Do you think there are more Gay people now than from 20years ago , or was it hidden in the past but same level . Once again , ask any Marine ,Gay or not and they will all say leave it the way it is . This is not saying that they are or arn't for it but just to leave it alone because they like the way it is now . I would bet if it were up to only the service men and women to vote on this , it would stay the the way it is .
Chris , You don't read very
Chris , You don't read very well . My logic is that activly serving Marines want to keep it the way it is . I also said there was a place for everyone that wants to serve .
Lori , great story and I am sure there are more out there , but I doubt the commanding officers knew that someone was gay in the group . It would be interested if the these guys involved would have treated your friend differently if they knew he was gay before they befriended him .
Once again I think there is a spot in the military for anyone that wants to serve no matter who they are or where they come from or what sex they like .
I am not a basher , just someone who thinks old school ideology served this country right and that our country tends to change for the worse . If gays servung boosts our ability to serve Democracy and protect us from the worlds hostile countries , I am all for it .
Why is it that hetero's (that
Why is it that hetero's (that goes for women as well) seem to think that EVERY gay person in the world MUST be attracted to THEM??? Really??!! Don't flatter yourselves!
And shouldn't military people be focusing on (insert conflict here) instead of sex at all? How can anyone even THINK about sex when being SHOT AT???
Here is a scenario that currently happens now:
Service member A has a same sex partner (we'll call the partner B)
A and B have a couple of kids (yes, gay people have kids together!). Service member A gets sent to (insert some country we shouldn't even be in here) and is killed on the battlefield.
Because B doesn't exist in the eyes of the military, B is never informed of Servicemember A's death, can't get the folded flag at the funeral, no deaath benefit for the family (the kids and partner remember?) that the hetero's all enjoy. How is B supposed to pay the mortgage etc????
This is cruel and discriminatory. If servicemember A had been a hetero, then the spouse would be informed, get the flag and all the other benefits for the family.
I won't even get into the "whitch hunt" factor that DADT started......So, someone knows you are gay, you get in an arguement about something, they OUT the gay person......The gay person LOSES THEIR JOB.....JUST for being gay....
Peace!
Dave, I know a number of
Dave,
I know a number of people who got the survey and didn't send it in. Some didn't care about the issue and others just don't answer surveys because they don't trust it will not come back and haunt them.
Thomas, You made a comment
Thomas,
You made a comment about how you would not feel comfortable pissing next to a gay guy, so you did make it about you. Also, I just talked to three of my co-workers who have been and still are Marines, they couldn't care or have cared less. Great quote from my buddy, Chris (edited for the family):
"If someone's coming at me with murder in their eyes and I'm down, I don't give a $#%@ who you ^&*% at night, I care that you do your job and save my @$$."
Chris served in Iraq by the way...with gay people!!! The horror.
Look I don't mean to make light of this, but a lot less people care this then you think. The problem is that it's the narrow-minded hypocritical know it all's that seem to have the power. How many war vets do you see on Congress/Senate/President?
Also to Julie:
Why is it that hetero's (that goes for women as well) seem to think that EVERY gay person in the world MUST be attracted to THEM??? Really??!! Don't flatter yourselves!
Damn woman that made me laugh so hard! You are awesome, just for that line. It is so accurate. Every homophobic person I know uses this as their number 1 line of defense. Pure gold.
Most people partition
Most people partition sexuality from non-sexual activity. This is certainly true in the workplace where sexual harassment is grounds for dismissal. I understand that the military has odd ideas about sexual behavior in its prisons (between guards and prisoners); I assumed these were isolated cases.
While using public facilities, I do not consider the sexual orientation of other facility users (nor do I assume others are scrutinizing mine). ...Even after revelations about Republican Senators from Idaho and their airport restroom footwork. Most people do not look for dates in the bathroom. (See first paragraph)
DADT is a white gown for those who know better. It is also last outpost for those with no legal basis to exempt gays who cling to notions of military decorum to uphold a toothless campaign.
Julie , You make some good
Julie , You make some good points . But unlike yourself who is in love with your partner , many are not . Some would marry just for the benefits . The hetro's do it now (not condoning this )to gain more benefits . i persnaly was invited to wedding of two 20years olds . One of the two were in the reserves and yes they had talked about marriage in the future but by no way were ready for marriage . The day it was announced that he was getting shipped to Afganastan , they also announced he was getting Married and she was going to get pregnant . You do not even want to know why they did this , but I bet you can guess . They divorced 6 months after he returned home . Should they have to reimburse the Government . By the way everuone hoprs one day they find someone special , in order to that one has to search out who they like . I may think someone likes me but is not atrracted to me , that is human nature . So if a straight person is attracted to me , then you would think a gay person might be as well . It's not out of the question to think a gay person might hit on a straight person on mistake . By the way Julie , there is down time for smilitary personell when not getting shot at . Soldiers are not always under fire nor on a mission all the time . Supprisingly a lot meet future partners for life in the military , thus were thinking about sex .
Peace to as well and yes i agree , we shouldn't be there to begin with .
Marriage shouldn't happen for benefits , that could be the reson why our country is sliding down hill .
How about this , eliminate all benefits for being Married , and open it up for everyone to get married based on love . Wouldn't that be Grand!!!!
It would be better to return
It would be better to return marriage as an institution belonging to religion and not the state.
CM, Or that downstate
CM,
Or that downstate Democratic ex Congressman who was "tickling" his male staff?
Phil , The quote from your
Phil , The quote from your buddies is right on the money for instance of in battle situation . Unfortunate this was to curb the issue when entering the military of how they would be treated or what they did when they were in . Your buddies will never disclose what really happened when they were in nor should they. Also the are marines , but they are not active or else the wouldn't be your co-workers . As far as Chris goes , I am kind of sick of hearing that he was in the Iraq war , and now he served with gays , who cares if he served with gays . He probably served with more than he knows . Why do we have to know who is or isn't Gay .
Thomas:"Why do we have to
Thomas:"Why do we have to know who is or isn't Gay ." We don't which is exactly why the DADT law should be repealed.
Julie: "Why is it that hetero's (that goes for women as well) seem to think that EVERY gay person in the world MUST be attracted to THEM??? Really??!! Don't flatter yourselves!" I am heterosexual and don't think that way, never did. Please don't stereotype. I agree with you about the marriage benefits.
BTW, I met & married my wife while we were both on active duty.
Dave , I agree , we don't
Dave , I agree , we don't need DADT . You met your wife in the military , thats cool and it didn't matter if someone was shooting at you
Bravo to Julie's statement.
Bravo to Julie's statement. I do my best to assume no one wants to have sex with me. I'm correct in that assumption nearly 100% of the time
Thomas said: "Why do we have
Thomas said:
"Why do we have to know who is or isn't Gay."
That's the thing, we don't. It shouldn't matter. You seem to think that getting rid of DADT means that gay service members will be walking around base wearing signs.
This is about making it no big deal because it isn't a big deal. Gay men are looking for other gay men and gay women don't want men at all. Their personal lives don't affect anyone else's personal life. At least not to any greater extent than your co-worker's lives affect yours now.
I think we're doing our country a great disservice by discriminating against citizens who want to serve.
I would just like to point
I would just like to point out that the Israeli defense forces allow gays and lesbians to serve openly. They are also second only to the US military in terms of lethality.
Anyone ever heard of the IDF ever having unit cohesion or image problems?
Didn't think so.
I don't know, John; tickling
I don't know, John; tickling could be creepy- an uninvited appendage while indisposed is pretty high on the creep scale.
Chris , I don't seem to think
Chris , I don't seem to think that at all . Your understanding of the English Language is about as good as your prices on everyday pots and pans . I thought I made it clear that I am for anyone to join the military if they want to .Chris you seem to knowa lot about nothing . I guess you would be a good politician . Why is it that evryone who served in the Iraq war thinks they are a politician , you and Bellavia should join forces on the same ballot.
CM, Just wanted to keep it
CM,
Just wanted to keep it fair.
John - Eric Massa was not
John - Eric Massa was not from downstate. His district is the 29th, which is the Southern Tier and encompasses part of the Rochester suburbs.
You mean this
You mean this Bellavia?
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=David_Bellavia
Yeah, he must be a real jerk.
Like you didn't know who I
Like you didn't know who I was refering to.Well Chris , Actually he is a real jerk , very arrogant and cocky . I couldn't stand listening to him 5 min .The funny thing , he is just a poster boy . There were many other men involved in that fight that didn't want the reconition but not him , he jumped out and told his version of what happened and painted a pretty picture for himself. Find a guy who served with him and he will tell you the same . Actually you guys are a lot alike , I really do think you should team up with him .
Thomas, I think that you
Thomas,
I think that you confused my friend, Chris with Mr. Charvella. Not the case, but let me say this...whether you served in WWII, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Kosovo, Afghanistan or Iraq...it is more then what most would have the courage for.
My point (And a lot of others) is that it should not matter what you sexual orientation is to serve our nation.
We are a varied people. We are immigrants. We are white, black and brown. We are gay and straight. We are rich and we are poor. But one thing that we have in common is that we are free.
We are free because those who served and died gave us that right. And death sir doesn't care about your race, your wealth or whom you bed at night.
If a Solider, Airman, Seaman or Marine are strong enough to stand and fight, then they're strong enough to do so with a homosexual next to them in line.
Actually, I didn't know who
Actually, I didn't know who he was. I googled him and that's what came up.
I do know this, you don't get recommended for those medals based on your own account of things that happened. He may not receive any of them, but simply writing and submitting the paperwork for that sort of award is a process that requires tons of investigation, and supporting evidence from the people who were there.
Julie, don't flatter your
Julie, don't flatter your self with that stereo type. I never thought that way.
I have added a paper I wrote last spring for my political science class at GCC.
Thomas, there are quite a few Marines active and former that share my opinion. Granted there are also those that share your opinion. You see that I gave credit to people whose opinion that I may not personally agree with.
C.M., what did the post you made early about the fox news guy have to do with this thread? In regard to the fox news post though, how many people have smeared the reputation of the New York time for unethical journalistic practices. You didn't come across as a mud slinger before so why start now?
Jeremiah J. Pedro
Professor C. Scruggs
Pos-105-51
7 April 2010
Don’t Ask Don’t Tell
The military is a unique subculture in American society. It is comprised of people from all walks of life. You will find people from wealthy families, poor families, all races, every state and territory of the union and many countries from around the world. Diversity abounds in the ranks with the exception of sexual preference. That is to say members of the United States Armed Forces are forbidden from serving as a uniformed member while maintaining an openly gay lifestyle.
When something is different people naturally tend to fear it. Whatever it may be the color of someone’s skin, their country of origin, their Ideas, or their sexual preference. The military is not free of this type of behavior. The military has discriminated against many groups in the past, such as the segregation of African-American troops from the time of the Civil War all the way through to World War II, and the segregation of the Japanese-Americans who were eager to serve American during World War II. At present the main group that faces such discrimination is those that identify themselves as Gay or Lesbian. Since 1992 the United States Military has had a policy known as “Don’t ask don’t tell.” The policy effectively forbids the Military from asking members or applicants of the United States Armed forces what their sexual orientation is. At the same time the Military forbids members or applicants of the United States Armed Forces to say they are gay or engage in same sex relationships. If the service member is caught or turned in for engaging in a homosexual relationship they are subject to separation from the Armed Forces. The policy does in essence allow closeted gays to serve.
This policy has been staunchly defended by high ranking members from all branches of the military and the United States Government. It is said that to allow gays to serve openly would destroy troop morale and unit cohesion. Some people even fear that they will have gay troops hitting on straight troops in the fighting holes. A lot of these opinions I find ridiculous. I think the dishonest behaviors that service members subject to this policy are forced to engage in are by far more destructive to unit cohesion and troop morale. It is time that Military learns from their history of discriminatory practices. It is time that Americans who have an alternative sexual preference are allowed to serve their country with honor.
One can only guess at how much money is wasted by the Armed Forces with investigations into the sexual behaviors of members. The subsequent court martial proceedings and the money wasted in training the individuals who are eventually kicked out due to their sexual preference. Some members have served for many years before being caught. And there are many more that have been successfully able to hide their sexual behavior long enough to reach retirement.
Currently there is a push by opponents to the “Don’t ask don’t tell policy” to have the policy repealed. This is due to promises made by the Obama administration during his election bid and the most recent State of the Union address. Some of these groups have grown frustrated with the President claiming he is not living up to promises made. But you must keep in mind, Commander in chief or not, Mr. Obama faces a Pentagon that is more defiant than they are reluctant to repeal the policy.
Some people say that recruiting efforts would be hurt by allowing Gay or Lesbians to serve openly. How is that going to hurt? Will people who have such a hate for those that are different from them refuse to enlist out of protest? Well I say good riddance. That would be a solid step in the right direction for a truly diverse volunteer Military.
I served on active duty in the United States Marine Corps for thirteen years. Eleven of those thirteen years I served as a Non-commissioned Officer. I was in a position where I was responsible for not only mission accomplishment but troop welfare as well. One of the most important characteristics that I looked for in my Marines was honesty. I wanted them to be honest with themselves, their fellow Marines and with me as well. I could personally care less if that Marine liked boys, girls or both so long as they did their job to the best of their ability. When it comes down to it the person’s sexual orientation will not prevent an infantryman from pulling a trigger, an administrator from typing a document, a cook from making a meal, or a General from issuing a command. It is far past time for the Military to set the example for American society. Now they have to add this sad chapter to their history as they have in the past with other cases of discrimination.
Thomas, my husband is a
Thomas, my husband is a Marine. He isn't called "no neck" for nothing. He's one of the toughest guys I have ever known. While in the Corp he accumulated a good share of meritorious awards and field promotions for accomplishing the missions serving alongside an equally tough gay Marine. He didn't care if he served with a gay guy in 1978 and he absolutely doesn't care now.
LOL Laurie a true embodiment
LOL Laurie a true embodiment of a Marine.....OOOOO Raaaagh.
Just to clarify, not sure what part of the Navy other "People" served in but the Navy I served in didn't give a rats ass about someone orientation. Like the Marines what we cared about was ablility to do the job.
MAybe it's time if the Govt wants to go this way for the Military that we should begin to look at legislation dealing with homosexual senators and congressmen as well?
Jeremiah, the Fox News post
Jeremiah, the Fox News post greeted me on AOL this morning. I used to post things I found interesting in my blog. H ignores most of what I find interesting, so I added it to the thread. You may consider that mudslinging. If I were to sling anything, maybe pies. Frankly, I wouldn't know what to sling at Fox News. I've never watched Fox News. The only television I watch, movies without commercials.
Posted by Thomas Mooney on
Posted by Thomas Mooney on December 9, 2010 - 11:32am
Marines will never accept this , nor should they . Close quaters with someone that might be attracted to you is obsurd , we don't need more distractions.
Tom, you sound like a homophobe to the extreme. Gays are attracted to other gays and they wouldn't waste their time with someone who isn't gay, seriously.
You, as you put it, "piss" next to gay or bi men every day if you work around enough people. Do you honestly think they're trying to peep your junk? Do you think you're that attractive to a gay/bi man?
I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about. I've worked with guys like you who say the silliest things such as "I don't care if there's a gay guy on our crew as long as he keeps his hands to himself!" If you could actually hear how lame and ignorant that sounds, you wouldn't have the attitude that you do.
I don't think you're pretty enough or have the type of personality to pique the interest of a gay man so rest assured, you're in the clear.
Posted by Lorie Longhany on
Posted by Lorie Longhany on December 9, 2010 - 4:40pm
Thomas, my husband is a Marine. He isn't called "no neck" for nothing. He's one of the toughest guys I have ever known. While in the Corp he accumulated a good share of meritorious awards and field promotions for accomplishing the missions serving alongside an equally tough gay Marine. He didn't care if he served with a gay guy in 1978 and he absolutely doesn't care now.
Lori, your husband is a real man, comfortable in his own leather skin..haha! Please tell him I said "thank you" for defending my freedom and for being able to think logically. He sounds like a man's man and a family man.
Thomas Mooney, now that I've
Thomas Mooney, now that I've had a chance to read more of your posts in this thread, do you have a drinking problem? Having worked side by side with alcoholics, straight and gay, your train of thought and sentence composition reflects impairment...just sayin'...just wondering...
The defense appropriation
The defense appropriation bill was filibustered yesterday so for now it's done. I did hear last night that there is talk of a procedural maneuver that will enable a stand alone bill to be introduced just on the repeal of DADT. If it isn't introduced before the end of the year it surely has no chance in the next congress and will languish until more representatives either change their heart or listen to the majority of the people that want this changed.
Doug, your absolutely right. He is my hero. Thank you for the kind words about my husband. And even though it's morning "Good night Chesty Puller, wherever you are".
Lorie, You forgot to mention
Lorie,
You forgot to mention that your hubby is one of the nicest, thoughtful, and understanding guys on this planet. (ahem, he didn't pay me to say that).
If this poll is any indication of the "will of the people", then the GOP is more out of step than I thought they were.
They ran on doing the "will of the people". What happen?
C.M., if you tag anything you
C.M., if you tag anything you post "blogs" it will sow up in the blogs section automatically.
We don't much put non-local stuff on the home page any more.
So that's what the "blogs" section was created for ... for anybody to post something they want to talk about that isn't necessarily going to make it to the home page.
Bea, I've lost my faith in
Bea, I've lost my faith in both major parties. Each has seemed to have lost their way. No matter who is in an elected position, they're supposed to carry out the will of the majority that placed them there. They're not supposed to just willy-nilly do whatever the hell they please after they get into office, which is exactly what both parties do now. They're supposed to "represent." The whole political arena has become a bloated, corrupt, self serving entity that overwhelms any opposition trying to control it.
I love to drink !! I miss
I love to drink !! I miss BackHoes . I drank a lot there right across from Julie and Deb and I never had a problem with either one of them . I also have a friend who is gay . So how is it that I am a Homaphobe ? I am against DADT for the reason of we don't need to know and that is it . The rest might be the beer yesterday and the fact that I was bored and wanted to stir some emotions to see what people thought .
Peter said "I voted no
Peter said
"I voted no because of my experience in the Navy. The gay woman I knew couldn't emotionally handle a discussion on Osama shortly after 9/11 because it was her against me and another guy."
I just don't even get what that means......(shrug)
Thomas said:
"You make some good points . But unlike yourself who is in love with your partner , many are not . Some would marry just for the benefits . The hetro's do it now (not condoning this )to gain more benefits . i personally was invited to wedding of two 20years olds . One of the two were in the reserves and yes they had talked about marriage in the future but by no way were ready for marriage . The day it was announced that he was getting shipped to Afganastan , they also announced he was getting Married and she was going to get pregnant . You do not even want to know why they did this , but I bet you can guess . They divorced 6 months after he returned home . Should they have to reimburse the Government"
Are you trying to say that gay people...... other than me and Deb don't love each other? Those 20 year olds prolly WERE in love.................... for the moment (we've all been THERE right?)....WE should be able to make the same horrid mistakes!!! People get married for the benefits, it doesn't have to do with religion. If it WAS a religious thing, then you wouldn't have to get a license from the State.
Does anyone else find it odd that you need a license to get married (which doesn't even mean anything if you are allowed to get divorced), a license to have a dog, a license to drive a car (which is a weapon) but you DON'T need a license to have children! What's up with THAT??!! People should have to pass a test (and a psych evaluation).......
Back to the topic at hand (sorry for the rant)
OK, Thomas, let me see if I got this correct. And, let me be clear here, I am NOT attacking you:
It's OK for gays to serve, but it's NOT OK for them to tell anyone they are gay. right? And you know me and Deb. And don't forget to add my Step Daughter into this.......... Here is a scenario:
Off to the land of Make Believe;
Pretend........I am in the Marines ( they have the coolest uniforms :). It's Holiday time, and I am invited to (insert Military holiday party here). EVERYONE else can bring their partner/spouse/even a date, except for me. I can't bring Deb with me because she doesn't exist to them. Do I go and just leave her home :( Do I not go:(
here are some more:
I am at work....in my cool uniform.....While chatting it up with my colleagues, everyone starts talking about their kids and their accomplishments and how much they miss them. They have pictures of their kids with them etc. I can have no pic of my kid, because if anyone finds out....I LOSE MY JOB..... MINE is about to get her Master's Degree (she REALLY IS BTW)......But I can't tell anyone :(
I'll LOSE MY JOB!
One morning I get in an argument with some straight chick in my unit about: Why the Beatles are THE greatest rock band ever, and they changed music forever, and whoever her favorite band is SUCKS! ALL she has to do to ruin my life is tell some higher up that I am gay.....and BAM! I LOSE MY JOB!!!
Now I get killed in some horrible 3rd world country.......Deb doesn't get notified, my Stepdaughter doesn't get notified, invited to my funeral or any of the other respect that war widows (for lack of a better word) get. Neither does my Stepdaughter (who refers to me as one of her Moms). Deb also gets no benefits which makes it so she can't pay the mortgage on the house. Now she loses her wife AND her home.
Our gay service members live in a constant state of fear that if they, use the wrong pronoun, or slip up talking about their beloved, piss someone off, they will lose their CAREER!
How can our men and women fight when they are constantly worried about losing their JOB???
For the people who took
For the people who took offense to my "why do hetero's think that ALL gay people want THEM"
For every one of you, there are 2 ignorant haters (which would be the people i was refering to).
The funny part is that as soon as the ignorant haters get a few drinks in them, they start getting flirty and touchy with the gayest person near them LOL!!!
Sigh......everyone just needs to go listen to "Imagine"
too much hate in the world!
Julie , Great points but I am
Julie , Great points but I am not married but love my girlfriend just like a wife . I too don't get the whole license deal . I also have had situations where spouse was invited and not my girlfriend og 10 years (we also have a child) . I didn't forget about your stepdaughter (she is an adult ) so I excluded her . I just wanted to make a point I have no problem with gay , lesbians or anyone else unless they have a problem with me .
To clarify the serving openly , my point is , it is the choice of the individuale not the government to make it public knowledge just as it is mine to the same as a hetro .
Now the deal with someone using being gay against you to get you fired is just wrong . So there needs to be no law at all , just drop the whole thing and treat everyone equall . the whole sexual thing should be like asking how much money you make . Its not illegal to ask but it is up to the individule to answer how they want.
By the wat , i always thought you looked like a bad ass military chick in the camo jacket . And yes you may be gay but I thought you were cute as with Deb regaurdless if I had a shot a picking you up .
Tom Said: "Now the deal
Tom Said: "Now the deal with someone using being gay against you to get you fired is just wrong . So there needs to be no law at all , just drop the whole thing and treat everyone equall"
Therefore DADT SHOULD be repealed because it should be a non issue :)
OH, and BTW, my hunting camo is SO much more fun then the boring OLD camo I used to wear at the bar!
It must be (treebark ).LOL
It must be (treebark ).LOL
Peace out