DEC bans old wood boilers and adopts strict rules for new ones

I have learned something this last year. Even though we had "sweeping changes" this last election cycle federally (not so much in NYS), our elected politicians are only part of the problem. We could change all of our elected state politicians and still very little would be accomplished because the bureaucracy is unchecked and making rules and regulations without any accountability to the subjects of NYS

Merry Christmas from New York State. If the DEC is going to ignore rural New York then I say its time to ignore the DEC.

Ignore the state and overwhelm with the task of enforcement. What are they going to do, show up on your property that you pay taxes on and tear down your boiler? People are leaving this state in droves for a lot of reasons. The fact that the state is willing to financially burden people even more is just one more reason.

I heat with firewood exclusively (propane backup) from 26 acres of wooded acreage I own and fear that wood stoves are next in their sights. Maybe I should look into a coal furnace or just leaving the state like people smarter than I already have.

I'm tired of hearing about this "green" crap. If the state really wanted to go green, they'd build more nuclear power plants that have no carbon emissions, are incredibly safe, cheap to operate and take up a small plot of land.

Burning firewood releases carbon that has been stored by the tree for a few decades. That tree has been scrubbing carbon from the air and producing oxygen. The net gain in atmospheric carbon is zero. Would the state rather we burn so called "fossil fuel" and release carbon that has been stored millions of years?

"I'm tired of hearing about this 'green' crap." A statement that pretty-much nullifies any intelligent discussion of the issue with wood-fired boilers.

I don't know if the state went too far or not. Some states (such as Vermont) have categorically outlawed these heating plants. At least New York was flexible enough to set standards for their operation rather than nix them entirely. Comparing all woodstoves to design-deficient boiler systems is like comparing apples to oranges. The wood-fired boilers that have attracted the DEC's attention are essentially smudge-pots that burn so inefficiently that they blanket whole areas with low-lying smog containing soot particles extremely dangerous to public health.

You seem to be concerned with the cost of home-heating. Offering nuclear-fission generated electric to those who could only afford a cheap low-tech boiler is no economical alternative. A better response would be to make the manufacturers of these offensive boilers bear responsibility to bring existing units into compliance.

In any event, I would be interested to hear what the 30 million American asthma sufferers (1 in 5 U. S. adults suffer some form of lung disease)- 5 million children have asthma, accounting for 250,000 hospitalizations per year and an annual death toll in the hundreds. ...A figure that has doubled since the 1980s and continues to grow. Gross expenditure on asthma treatment in the U. S. is $18 billion. ...Put that in your (stove)pipe and smoke it!

Doug,
I agree, wood stoves are very likely to be the next target. To think the DEC would never do that is just blind faith in Albany. We see that NY now even regulates campfires.

I have no problem saying that new boilers have to meet new standards. But this retroactive regulation, with no public input is just another example of why Albany ignoring us. Maybe the NY State Senate will be able to cut funding to this bunch.

C.M. Are you for any regulation that removes the right of the people to provide for themselves?

No, Peter, I point out drawbacks to combustion systems that produce soot and particulate, dangerous to public health, including the health of those using such systems. I noted previously that I was for grandfathering existing boilers. I added that there should be an obligation on the part of manufacturers to make good on non-complying systems. I DID NOT advocate for the cost of any retrofit be encumbered by the purchaser.

The boilers that don't meet spec are poorly designed knock-offs of quality systems that DO meet spec. Soot-laden smoke is the result of poor combustion which promotes creosote build-up in the stack- the cause of chimney fires. ...Notably why these units have short stacks- to avoid secondary combustion. Obviously these cheap boilers are not economical, because they do not yield a complete burn. They waste fuel, loosing incompletely burned particles and gases that smother the vicinity in smog.

As for extrapolating the outlaw of campfires and wood-burning in general- the demise of wood lots will bring about that eventuality. Campfire regulations prevent forest fires and probably spare the lives of hundreds of drunks who might otherwise succumb, stumbling into their own inferno.

"Campfire regulations prevent forest fires and probably spare the lives of hundreds of drunks who might otherwise succumb, stumbling into their own inferno."

C.M. that's known as "Natural Selection" lol

As for the boilers, there's probably a lack of common sense being applied in many situations. ie: poor quality boiler models, poor installations, and using them in a suburban or village area where it would bother neighbors. Try as the United Socialist State of NY may, you just can't fix stupid. This issue should be left to the towns, villages and cities to regulate.

CM,
Why should a manufacture, who sold a system many years ago, that did not violate any rule, law or regulation, be made to pay for changes now? The old systems may be not be economical, but they were legal. Under your scenario, car makers should be made to bring every old 1960/1970 car on the road up to current standards. Many of them get poor mileage and have no pollution controls.

I have no problem with setting new standards for new boilers, but your idea would not be fair. And while you do not say the purchasers should pay for a refit, do you really think a manufacturer, if forced to update old ones, would not pass the cost on to new buyers? Really?

As for camp fires, the demise of wood lots will not be the end of them, it will be Albany. When I go camping now, New York State has decided for me how big my fire can be. The logical next step for Albany will be to ban them.

And the size of a camp fire has little to do with forest fires. If a camp fire is the cause it is usually because the fire was unattened or not completely put out.

...or maybe the fire was so big it ignited overhanging branches or created a draft that carried embers away or set ground cover afire or left surrounding vegetation dessicated...

Yeah, John, it would be unfair to ask those overseas manufacturers to match the quality specs of well-made American boilers. That would be absolutely unfair.

My main problem (outside of the insane outlawing of previously legal heating sources) is that the DEC/Beurocracy is just making laws and regulations with ZERO checks and balances. As I see it the only way to stop this run away Govt. beurocracy is the constitutional way of the disolving of the current govt and having a constitutional convention...In essence, starting over with a govt. and beurocracy the size that it was in 1784...A govt. of the people, by the people and FOR the people (not A govt of the people, by the people and for a few people's agenda and bank account! {Al Gore}).

CM,
Are you saying that the boilers, made years ago, were all foreign made? If some of the old boilers were made here also, should US manufactures also be made to pay?

Should car manufactures in the US be made to retrofit their old cars that are inefficient and pollute? There are probably more old cars than boilers in NYS that are polluting.

Camp fires: You seem to be making the case for banning camp fires

"Campfire regulations prevent forest fires and probably spare the lives of hundreds of drunks who might otherwise succumb, stumbling into their own inferno."

It isn't the fire that is the problem in this scenario, it's the alcohol. No, let me correct myself... it is the IDIOT who drinks so much that they fall into a fire. I couldn't care less about regulating to protect them. It'll thin down the herds of idiots that roam our countrysides

Lori,
Stop using common sense.

Right, John; I'll support a ban on campfires right after I turn in my pioneering merit badge. ...And you accuse Bea of making stuff up!

Wood-fired boilers may have existed for centuries, but current popularity began in the 1980s when fuel oil prices spiked, spawning the survivalist and off-the-grid movements. Experimental, homemade boilers and bragging about low heat bills got people's attention. The controversy began when Chinese manufacturers flooded the growing market with inexpensive boilers. Wood fired/supplemental hydronic heating can be very efficient and practical. Unfortunately, not everyone who buys a boiler has the expertise to complement the technology.

Few people have the patience and attention span to conquer anything more demanding than a thermostat.

http://www.woodheat.org/technology/outboiler.htm

Lori, do you really believe I was advocating for drunken fire-builders?! Are you interested in Manhattan real estate? I can manage a great price on this bridge over the East River...

I might be interested in buying that bridge. Can I rent it out and make a dollar ? The way government regulates businesses lately, its getting tougher and tougher to make that almighty dollar. Perhaps I can go into the bridge business.

By the way, thanks for posting the "clapper" routine; much appreciated.

"Lori,
Stop using common sense."

Sorry, I'll start thinking irrationally! ;-) John, I think my Dad used to buy all of his cars from you! Didn't you have a lot where maybe Burger King is now?

"Lori, do you really believe I was advocating for drunken fire-builders?! Are you interested in Manhattan real estate? I can manage a great price on this bridge over the East River..."

I responded to a single sentence of yours that didn't make a heck of a lot of sense to me (John called it using my common sense). This is the beauty of posting on the internet... I don't have a clue why a person writes what they write, so my response is based only on MY perception about what the intended meaning was. It's sort of like having a conversation with you, only I don't know what you look like, can't hear your voice, and have to wait a long time to get our points across. I don't care for texting either, btw, lol!

CM,
You're probably thinking of the Camping Merit Badge. The Pioneering badge was mostly knots.

The need for the Albany to regulate the size of fire rings and flame height was unnecessary, excessive and arbitrary. You can almost see some DEC guy running around with a tape measure at State Parks.

And your "or maybe the fire was so big it ignited overhanging branches or created a draft that carried embers away or set ground cover afire or left surrounding vegetation dessicated..." appeared to be an argument against camp fires. Personally, I support the Leave no Trace camping, but I don't want it to become a law out of Albany.

For me, the reason for boiler popularity or who makes them and where, is not the issue. Neither is the efficiency of the older boilers or even the new standards which I support.

It is your idea that manufactures should be forced to pay for upgrades on what was a legal product that broke no laws, rules or regulations and was acceptable until the DEC just set arbitrary new standards without public input.

John, I am not a fan of government enforcing seat belt and helmet laws. Give people the gory details; it's a personal choice- whether to wear one or not. Yes, the expense of accidents is shared by all, the collective cost-impact of any accident elevates insurance, emergency service, DOT, hospital costs- not to mention traffic disruption and the emotional impact.

Essentially, though, using or not using (seat belt or helmet) neither causes nor increases the likelihood of being in an accident. In other words, the choice not to wear a seat belt injures no one else.

The operator of a wood-fed boiler is not so isolated. The smoke doesn't stay on the owner's property. A single, idling boiler can bury a whole community in a shroud of dense smoke. Does the quest for inexpensive heat take precedence over a neighbor's quest for clean air? If property owner A's boiler generates smoke that sends property owner B's asthmatic kid to the hospital, who is the aggrieved party?

The article I posted previously is from a site that promotes wood heating. They were quite vivid in describing the smoke produced by wood-fed boilers. Those unfamiliar may assume these units produce a little smoke at outset (like starting a fire in the indoor wood stove). These units under-burn by design and continually belch creosote burn-off and dense particle smoke. Before defending them, become familiar with what you're defending.

It is unnecessary to explain the pioneering merit badge. I earned one. Further, I'm not responsible for you not recognizing a response to your own argument.

CM,
I never wrote about auto accessories (seat belts)enforcement. I asked if you thought Albany should force auto companies to bring old cars up to new car standards. Many old cars are not fuel efficient and pollute more than new models. They are probably more of a risk than wood boilers, so why should you treat them differently?

I own an older (1970's) wood burning stove that is not nearly as efficient as the new ones. Should Albany order the manufacture to upgrade my stove due to a new standard developed 40 years later?

I do not believe that a company that made and sold a product legally, should years later be made to upgrade it only because the standards were changed years later. You do.

As for the merit badge, we were discussing camp fires. You brought up a badge that had nothing to do with camp fires and it seemed you confused it with Camping.

You're correct, John. I wrote about seat belts. I'm glad you can tell the difference.

CM,That's OK, I am use to you mixing things up to try and make a point.

Mention of my pioneering badge... Rather than describe my outdoor activities, I substituted an icon: the Boy Scout Pioneering Merit Badge. I earned that merit badge with three other scouts, building a lashed bridge across Wiscoy Creek at Camp Sam Wood. Let me spell it out; I am not anti-campfire.

just buy everyone that has a wood fired boiler a skyhook and a left handed smoke shifter. Problem solved ;)

CM, Good to know you support Scouts being allowed to have camp fires, now and in the future. Now if we can keep the DEC away, things will be great.

By the way, a rope bridge ("Monkey Bridge") is still built one weekend a year over that creek by the Boy Scouts. Then approx. 100 - 150 boys get to cross over. If you ever want to help Scouts build it, let me know.

The impetus for new regulations was not some ice fisherman with a vintage stove in his shanty. The influx of cheap, boilers and potential wide application of them needed to be addressed in advance. Since the law does not grandfather existing boilers, then the manufacturers should share an obligation toward compliance with the consumer. One assumes that manufacturer/distributors anticipated regulation and profited by marketing the dirty-burners first. Once the laws take hold, they will profit again selling retrofits and compliant boilers.

CM,
Ten - fifteen years ago, I doubt anyone anticipated the DEC doing this. So I see no obligation on the manufactures part. Again, we can only hope that the State Senate will kill funding for enforcement until the DEC grandfathers the existing ones. Somebody who bought a boiler a decade or more ago should not be screwed now by Albany over an arbitrary decision.

I do agree we all should have know the DEC would bring this back up right after the election. But I think we had a right to expect public hearings again.

Kyle,
I wish you were running the DEC.

Indoor wood stoves have been regulated for decades. Why wouldn't outdoor boilers garner similar scrutiny once usage increased dramatically? Presuming manufacturers didn't anticipate like-treatment is, at best, naive. Air quality and fire safety concerns have focused attention on all solid fuel combustion since the 70s.

Kyle, you're presuming they already possess left-handed monkey wrenches and tent stretchers?

CM,
What New York State regulations on the manufacture of wood stoves have been around for decades? Can't find them. When I bought my stove in the 1970's, the only NYS regulations were on the stove pipes. There were local building codes and home insurance rules on the stove distance from walls, ceilings and floor protection, kind of pipes and how the pipes went into a chimney, but not on the manufacture of the stove itself.

About 5 years ago, I looked at newer stoves, and found no New York State manufacturing regulations on them, just more rules on instillation and more on the pipes.

Where did you find the NYS/DEC regulations on the manufacture of wood stoves? Or, are you mixing NYS/DEC up with the federal EPA rules? True, federal rules and regulations have been around since the 1980's.

And the federal EPA, while changing rules and regulations on wood stoves, have always allowed stoves to be grandfathered. Even the EPA has never said manufactures should be forced to pay for upgrades as you do.

Isn't length of the flue pipe one of the prime issues with the boilers? I didn't specify a regulatory agency in my comment.

...this horse is dead, John. At any rate, I'm tired of tossing your stick!

CM,
While you might be "tired", we were discussing NYS/DEC. It was New York State/DEC, not the federal government/EPA that issued this new set of regulations.

If you mixed State and Federal rules, fine, just try to be clear when you switch. But I agree, the horse is dead now.

CM, you sure do over complicate things. Are you an engineer?

My profession is heating and AC. Stacks build up creosote because of improper fuel combustion/too cold of a stack temperature. I've seen boilers loaded with soot that were fired on natural gas and even worse on #6 oil. Soot isn't isolated to wood stoves or wood boilers.

Newer wood stoves are the main culprits of stack fires because they don't allow the stack temperature to remain hot enough all the way to the vent cap. Anyone who has been running a wood stove for any length of time is aware that a stack needs to be routinely burned out to prevent creosote build-up. They can also attest to the stench when flue gas temperatures drop low enough causing them to condense inside the stack and leak back into the house.

There's really no such things as "wasting" wood in a boiler or a wood stove. It's a renewable resource so it really is impossible to waste from a resource point of view. From an out of pocket expense, that's a different matter.

It cost me about $300 to heat my house for the entire winter as opposed to $300 to $450 per month if I used propane. I really do not care if I go through an extra cord of wood to keep the stack temperature high enough. If it gets too hot in the house, I crack open the windows and get some fresh air.

Next year there will be more trees..they grow back and proper tree management is good for the forest. So is feeding them carbon dioxide by burning wood.

CM, I still advocate nuclear energy. The more nuclear power plants we have, the less costly our electric demands would be and our air quality would also improve.

You really did take something I said out of context:

CM: "I'm tired of hearing about this 'green' crap." A statement that pretty-much nullifies any intelligent discussion of the issue with wood-fired boilers.

I gave a good reason why I said that I'm tired of hearing about the "green crap" but you failed to include that in your quote. That's typical of someone who twists things to try and make their own views seem to be the only and correct view. You directed my "green" comment directly at wood boilers when I meant it as a statement about "green" in general.

Every green project seems to have a point where it's canceled out somewhere else. Take wind turbines for example. Everyone seems to love them but that's because they don't see what happened before they even produced a single watt of energy. The amount of mining for the steel and copper that goes into a turbine is staggering. Acreage all around each turbine is eaten up and and the massive concrete block anchoring them to the ground will be there forever. They're a high maintenance piece of machinery. They're anything but green.

David Paterson issued an executive order prohibiting the high-volume, horizontal hydraulic fracturing process of drilling for natural gas until at least July 1, 2011.

NYS, the state that's going bankrupt if it already isn't, decided not to allow anyone to participate in what would amount to billions of dollars in revenue for the state. It would've also created quite a few jobs. Yeah...real green that decision was, Dave Paterson.

The regulations regarding installation of an outdoor furnace should be up to the code enforcement officer in each municipality. Each site has different circumstances. Our furnace is properly installed and operated in a very rural area with no close neighbors. Why should DEC have anything to say about it?

Requiring 18' stacks on all outdoor furnaces will do nothing except lower our bank balances and create a risk that presently doesn't exist. We experience frequent high winds and extending our stack will require some type of support system. Who benefits from this?

NY is broke, people are out of work, taxes are out of sight and yesterday it was announced that the state will spend $30m on conservation easements. NY residents that are dependent on wood heat must unite and stand up against the politicians in Albany. It's time they listened to the taxpayers paying their salaries.