Poll voter education :)
Surprisingly I just spoke to someone who voted incorrectly because they didn't know what "overt" meant.
overt - "Open and observable; not hidden, concealed, or secret:"
A display is overtly expressing the views any religion has no place on public property, that is a matter of settled law. You want to display the expressions of your religious faith you are free do do it in your church, temple, mosque, ashram, home or in businesses front window, pay for a bill board on main street that's your right. That right however does not extend into venues paid for with tax dollars.
Laura you are so right! How shameful it is that we have such an overzealous law and sue happy society. People sue for anything. Heck who doesn't love the people who get millions of dollars in settlements for their own lack of intelligence (i.e. the lady who spilled hot coffee on her because, she placed cup between her legs while driving. She stated, that she had been going to McD's for years and didn't know the coffee was so hot.). Beside Christmas has lost its true meaning anyway and become so commercial.
Ed so, if the students put on a play about Christmas at their school, should it be outlaw? Really does Christmas go out and preach to the world that, you must follow Christianity? Yes, it is a belief about the birth of Jesus but, I do not know anyone that uses this to teach Christianity in schools? If, anything it more of holiday traditions and like I said Christmas is more commercial these days.
John, the birth of Christ is the very embodiement of Christmas and Christianity to claim that this does not teach the religious aspect of it is non-sense. It's the camel's nose under the tent. The reaction to say a pagent or play celebrating the Prophet Mohamed and his rise to heaven or the Mormon Angel Morony's giving Joseph Smith the golden paltes would be to immiediately call for the dismissal of whatever teacher or public school official that allowed it to take place in the public school.
As to your bringing the lawsuit against McDonald's scalding a customer, it was a jury of her peers who made the award on the basis of a sustained injury.
The only reason I see for using the reference of the Lawsuit against McDonlds being wrong is because Ed was right it was a lawsuit voted on by a jury of her peers. lets all have a chance to vote on who whats to keep God in our schools and other places .
@Deborah, having God in public schools is a settled matter of law. The Supreme Court ruled that bringing religion into the public schools is prohibited by our Constitution's "Bill of Rights" 1st. Amendment's establishment clause that effectively seperates church and state.
The idea of voting to bring "God" into our schools begs the question what "God" or "Gods" and who's "God or God's", will you include those who worship nature or "Wickens"? What other modifications would you make in the "Bill of Rights"?
How is that a statement of my faith? The Christmas season is, yes, a celebration of the birth of Christ - and so much more. "Good will towards men" comes to mind.
Does this mean that as kid there was no Christmas at your house? No Christmas celebrations in school? No pageants, plays or concerts?
Have you been harmed by these traditions? I think not. Remember the excitement? Is it right to deprive today's kids of that?
No one has been harmed by these traditions, but it's not right to shove your religious practices in other peoples faces and expect them to accept it. Should followers of Islam run around screaming that your children should fast during Ramadan?
The Yuletide holiday celebration that celebrates the season of "Good will toward's men" is not the problem, the problem arises when it centers around the birth of Christ and injects religion into the mix. Holiday celebrations at public schools that focus on the birth of Jesus and the three wise men cross a clearly defined line drawn of the seperation of church.
The taxpayers who are not Christian or for that matter athiests and agnostics should not have to contribute to the celebration or may not want their children exposed to it. I went to Catholic and private schools and yes we celebrated the Christmas Miracle as the very foundation of our faith, the plays, concerts and pageants were inspiring for all of those who chose to partake in the celebration. The difference being it was a private celebration paid for by choice as was our familiy festivities at home, not paid for with taxpayers monies and not requiring attendence as is demanded in the public school.
We are blessed in this country that there is a Bill of Rights that provides us all the right to worship as we please and just as important to not worship if we choose not to. For those who desire to have Christmas be a "Christian Holiday" please feel free to celebrate in your church of choice or till the cows come to your own home.
Having said that, I wish one and all a happy and safe Thanksgiving holiday and ask only that when you tuck in tommorow you take a moment to think of those who can not be there whether because they are deployed out of the country or have to work....
Very nice Ed. Well when the State or Federal Govt pick up the full tab for the school district's budget then the can apply the separation of church and state. As has been discussed here it we taxpayers that pay for schools here, if we have kids or not we pay for it and I hope the schools assert themselves from mandates like this and allow all religions the freedom to celebrate openly. I dont think a jury of peers would support such a lawsuit as there is no physical injury involved with such. I guess the next step is to sue people because they put a Nativity scene up on their lawn.
What about the other side of the coin, if celebrating Christmas is so against the 1st amendment's separation of church and state the lets remove the holiday and holiday pay from state and federal offices calendars and make it just another work day at the same usual rate of pay.
Just to spin things around...when I worked and lived in the Philadelphia area, we had the Christian and the Jewish holidays off. That was a perk from Kodak in Philly - never had that when I was in Rochester.
@ Ed, you say "A display is overtly expressing the views any religion has no place on public property, that is a matter of settled law." What law settled it? Any public place, including government property can display things such as a Nativity, Menorah, scripture verse, etc. as long as that same entity does not discriminate against any other religious displays. Our laws support the freedom OF religion, not the freedom FROM religion.
Jeff, the courts have allowed for the Nativity Creche, Mennorahs and other icons that have religious signifigance as long as they do not express or promote the views of any religion to be displayed.
There is a difference between a Mennorah, Cross or Creche that simply sits and putting a play, dramatization, or clerics speaking representing any religious sect to live audiences with the taxpayers money explaining the signififance of the icon to their faith.
Have a Mennorah, Cross, Creche or copy of the Ten Commandments in carved stone and gilded in bronze on the courthouse steps, but a dramatization of the comemorated event on those same steps is not allowed because it promotes the belief system of whatever religious group producing the show to high-light whatever the icon is.
Ed, by splitting hairs, you concede that the separation of church and state is not iron clad, but a matter of nuance in religious presentation and representation. I think the law is clear in it's intent that religion and it practice thereof is not to be either specifically promoted nor inhibited by the government.
So then Ed since the schools arent advocating a priest coming in and speaking, or doing a play promoting Christianity, then choral concerts and hanging of signs, lights and even putting up a Nativity scene are all overt observations of Christmas that can be done on school property. Your splitting hairs and making definitions to suit yourself.
Remember the question was about overt expressions of Christmas, not dramatization or a promotion of the holiday.
I wonder what JC and "god" would think about this annual discussion. It seems to me that there's a lot of evil and poverty in the world. I'm thinking they'd like that stuff addressed.
Tyvm to everyone who praised Ra and Apollo last night! Wahoo!
We have imported so many different cultures into this country to the point of losing our own cultural identity, that is ,if we really ever had one.
I'm surprised there hasn't been an attack on Halloween, as christians played a significant role in defining what halloween is.
There are outspoken groups who oppose Halloween based on its pagan roots. Of course, they forget that Christmas falls at the time of the Winter Solstice as a way for the Christians to coopt the pagans into Christianity, but we digress. There are instances of schools banning Halloween because of this, or so I've heard.
Our cultural identity has always been that we are a melting pot of various cultures and religions. The very founding of our nation had to do with freedom of religion, unless you were Native Amercian, but again we digress. ;)
By all means YES. We need
By all means YES. We need another Scopes monkey trial in this Country.
How sad that we live in such
How sad that we live in such a SUE HAPPY SOCIETY!
Poll voter education
Poll voter education :)
Surprisingly I just spoke to someone who voted incorrectly because they didn't know what "overt" meant.
overt - "Open and observable; not hidden, concealed, or secret:"
A display is overtly
A display is overtly expressing the views any religion has no place on public property, that is a matter of settled law. You want to display the expressions of your religious faith you are free do do it in your church, temple, mosque, ashram, home or in businesses front window, pay for a bill board on main street that's your right. That right however does not extend into venues paid for with tax dollars.
Laura you are so right! How
Laura you are so right! How shameful it is that we have such an overzealous law and sue happy society. People sue for anything. Heck who doesn't love the people who get millions of dollars in settlements for their own lack of intelligence (i.e. the lady who spilled hot coffee on her because, she placed cup between her legs while driving. She stated, that she had been going to McD's for years and didn't know the coffee was so hot.). Beside Christmas has lost its true meaning anyway and become so commercial.
Ed so, if the students put on a play about Christmas at their school, should it be outlaw? Really does Christmas go out and preach to the world that, you must follow Christianity? Yes, it is a belief about the birth of Jesus but, I do not know anyone that uses this to teach Christianity in schools? If, anything it more of holiday traditions and like I said Christmas is more commercial these days.
John, the birth of Christ is
John, the birth of Christ is the very embodiement of Christmas and Christianity to claim that this does not teach the religious aspect of it is non-sense. It's the camel's nose under the tent. The reaction to say a pagent or play celebrating the Prophet Mohamed and his rise to heaven or the Mormon Angel Morony's giving Joseph Smith the golden paltes would be to immiediately call for the dismissal of whatever teacher or public school official that allowed it to take place in the public school.
As to your bringing the lawsuit against McDonald's scalding a customer, it was a jury of her peers who made the award on the basis of a sustained injury.
The only reason I see for
The only reason I see for using the reference of the Lawsuit against McDonlds being wrong is because Ed was right it was a lawsuit voted on by a jury of her peers. lets all have a chance to vote on who whats to keep God in our schools and other places .
@Deborah, having God in
@Deborah, having God in public schools is a settled matter of law. The Supreme Court ruled that bringing religion into the public schools is prohibited by our Constitution's "Bill of Rights" 1st. Amendment's establishment clause that effectively seperates church and state.
The idea of voting to bring "God" into our schools begs the question what "God" or "Gods" and who's "God or God's", will you include those who worship nature or "Wickens"? What other modifications would you make in the "Bill of Rights"?
@ed, I would find it
@ed, I would find it acceptable to praise Odin and Thor in schools.
Merry Christmas, Ed. How is
Merry Christmas, Ed.
How is that a statement of my faith? The Christmas season is, yes, a celebration of the birth of Christ - and so much more. "Good will towards men" comes to mind.
Does this mean that as kid there was no Christmas at your house? No Christmas celebrations in school? No pageants, plays or concerts?
Have you been harmed by these traditions? I think not. Remember the excitement? Is it right to deprive today's kids of that?
No one has been harmed by
No one has been harmed by these traditions, but it's not right to shove your religious practices in other peoples faces and expect them to accept it. Should followers of Islam run around screaming that your children should fast during Ramadan?
As long as kids of any faith
As long as kids of any faith are allowed to express that faith personally, everything is fine.
Merry Cristmas to you as well
Merry Cristmas to you as well Bob.
The Yuletide holiday celebration that celebrates the season of "Good will toward's men" is not the problem, the problem arises when it centers around the birth of Christ and injects religion into the mix. Holiday celebrations at public schools that focus on the birth of Jesus and the three wise men cross a clearly defined line drawn of the seperation of church.
The taxpayers who are not Christian or for that matter athiests and agnostics should not have to contribute to the celebration or may not want their children exposed to it. I went to Catholic and private schools and yes we celebrated the Christmas Miracle as the very foundation of our faith, the plays, concerts and pageants were inspiring for all of those who chose to partake in the celebration. The difference being it was a private celebration paid for by choice as was our familiy festivities at home, not paid for with taxpayers monies and not requiring attendence as is demanded in the public school.
We are blessed in this country that there is a Bill of Rights that provides us all the right to worship as we please and just as important to not worship if we choose not to. For those who desire to have Christmas be a "Christian Holiday" please feel free to celebrate in your church of choice or till the cows come to your own home.
Having said that, I wish one and all a happy and safe Thanksgiving holiday and ask only that when you tuck in tommorow you take a moment to think of those who can not be there whether because they are deployed out of the country or have to work....
A very well thought out
A very well thought out response, Ed. I still don't agree though. :)
Very nice Ed. Well when the
Very nice Ed. Well when the State or Federal Govt pick up the full tab for the school district's budget then the can apply the separation of church and state. As has been discussed here it we taxpayers that pay for schools here, if we have kids or not we pay for it and I hope the schools assert themselves from mandates like this and allow all religions the freedom to celebrate openly. I dont think a jury of peers would support such a lawsuit as there is no physical injury involved with such. I guess the next step is to sue people because they put a Nativity scene up on their lawn.
What about the other side of the coin, if celebrating Christmas is so against the 1st amendment's separation of church and state the lets remove the holiday and holiday pay from state and federal offices calendars and make it just another work day at the same usual rate of pay.
Of course that wont happen though will it?
Just to spin things
Just to spin things around...when I worked and lived in the Philadelphia area, we had the Christian and the Jewish holidays off. That was a perk from Kodak in Philly - never had that when I was in Rochester.
@ Ed, you say "A display is
@ Ed, you say "A display is overtly expressing the views any religion has no place on public property, that is a matter of settled law." What law settled it? Any public place, including government property can display things such as a Nativity, Menorah, scripture verse, etc. as long as that same entity does not discriminate against any other religious displays. Our laws support the freedom OF religion, not the freedom FROM religion.
Apparently we need to spend
Apparently we need to spend more time praising Apollo and Ra in Western, NY because they've been slacking this week! ;)
Jeff, the courts have allowed
Jeff, the courts have allowed for the Nativity Creche, Mennorahs and other icons that have religious signifigance as long as they do not express or promote the views of any religion to be displayed.
There is a difference between a Mennorah, Cross or Creche that simply sits and putting a play, dramatization, or clerics speaking representing any religious sect to live audiences with the taxpayers money explaining the signififance of the icon to their faith.
Have a Mennorah, Cross, Creche or copy of the Ten Commandments in carved stone and gilded in bronze on the courthouse steps, but a dramatization of the comemorated event on those same steps is not allowed because it promotes the belief system of whatever religious group producing the show to high-light whatever the icon is.
Ed, by splitting hairs, you
Ed, by splitting hairs, you concede that the separation of church and state is not iron clad, but a matter of nuance in religious presentation and representation. I think the law is clear in it's intent that religion and it practice thereof is not to be either specifically promoted nor inhibited by the government.
So then Ed since the schools
So then Ed since the schools arent advocating a priest coming in and speaking, or doing a play promoting Christianity, then choral concerts and hanging of signs, lights and even putting up a Nativity scene are all overt observations of Christmas that can be done on school property. Your splitting hairs and making definitions to suit yourself.
Remember the question was about overt expressions of Christmas, not dramatization or a promotion of the holiday.
I wonder what JC and "god"
I wonder what JC and "god" would think about this annual discussion. It seems to me that there's a lot of evil and poverty in the world. I'm thinking they'd like that stuff addressed.
Tyvm to everyone who praised Ra and Apollo last night! Wahoo!
We have imported so many
We have imported so many different cultures into this country to the point of losing our own cultural identity, that is ,if we really ever had one.
I'm surprised there hasn't been an attack on Halloween, as christians played a significant role in defining what halloween is.
There are outspoken groups
There are outspoken groups who oppose Halloween based on its pagan roots. Of course, they forget that Christmas falls at the time of the Winter Solstice as a way for the Christians to coopt the pagans into Christianity, but we digress. There are instances of schools banning Halloween because of this, or so I've heard.
Our cultural identity has always been that we are a melting pot of various cultures and religions. The very founding of our nation had to do with freedom of religion, unless you were Native Amercian, but again we digress. ;)