"Gaming" is the word the industry likes to use for itself. You can see why: "gaming" connotes "fun!" The industry billboards show the same: a happy couple with big smiles marveling at the tumbling dice and flying cards. Who wouldn't want to be them?
"Gambling" is a word I find much more accurate. "Gambling" in my mind connotes "addiction", "risk", "a not so subtle way to drain the poor and middle class", "the house never loses", "a horrible way to stimulate a local economy", "organized crime", "political hack appointments", etc.
I bet (sic) if the poll question used the word" gambling" instead of "gaming" the results would be measurably different.
By the way, I have never purchased a lottery ticket or entered a casino. One time, just to say I'd been there, I crossed over into Nevada at Lake Tahoe. The casino was built right to the edge of the state line. I didn't go in, but looked through the door. In the middle of the day it was dark and filled with flashing lights, all carefully designed to numb intelligence and reinforce addictive behavior.
While I have never paid for a lottery ticket, I did find an unused one while raking leaves one day when I lived in Rochester. I scratched it off and won $10. I'm ahead, and will stay that way.
A credit union manager I know noticed in interviewing loan applicants about their spending habits learned to ask about their lottery ticket purchases each week. "I buy two or three" was the invariable answer. (similar to the "I only had a couple of drinks - but that's another story). She did some calculating and figured that if instead of playing lottery they put that money in savings at the end of twenty years they'd have $100,000 saved. I could do a lot of fun with that!
A few years ago some friends and I went to the Home Show and 'WON' some free Batavia Downs merchandise--that we had to go upstairs and sign up for one of their member cards to get. We also got $5 of free play on those cards. Guess how much we spent? The $5 they gave us for free. We thought it was interesting that in all of the pictures of the 'Big Winners' the people looked exhausted, stoned or like zombies. If you've seen their add in the Genesee County travel guide (and elsewhere) there's a man with a huge excited smile, clutching a handful of $1 bills! I think the total amount is less than $10! So is the man excited because he WON $10 or because he managed to walk away with any money at all? If you ever drive by there, you never see a HAPPY person leaving, and it seems the busiest days are the days when people get their Social Security checks. How would allowing Casino style gaming be a positive at all?
The vast majority of people gamble responsibly. Should they be denied the chance to do something they enjoy because a minority of people develop gambling addictions?
Should we outlaw alcohol because some people become alcoholics?
Prohibition didn't work.
Changing the state's constitution to allow a full range of table games at Batavia Downs and similar locations would not only be good for the local economy, it just makes sense.
As a poker player, I'm eager to see the Downs be able to offer card games.
I banned myself from Batavia Downs almost two years ago. I work just down the road from there, and when they first put those slots in over there, I could NOT pass by and just GO HOME after work - so I was there FIVE NIGHTS A WEEK. Lost LOTS of money over there - LOTS. Luckily, my nephew told me that HE had banned himself from Batavia Downs, and after thinking about it for a couple of months, and then adding up all the money I lost over there, I decided to ban myself, too. BEST MOVE I'VE MADE IN YEARS. If I still want to gamble, it's only an hour away - Hamburg, Seneca, Finger Lakes - but that's been enough of a deterrent to keep me from going ALL the way THERE anymore since March, when I lost $200 in - less than an hour !!!!!! I've also, since then, been able to pretty much ignore Quick Draw (aka Crack Draw) where I work, and VERY SELDOM any more even buy scratch-off or even regular NY Lottery tickets.
So FOR ME, I could care less - I won't be going in there no matter WHAT they add. I draw a line, however, at telling OTHER people what to do with THEIR time and money.
Howard, the idea of turning the "Batavia Downs" into a full blown casino devalues the historic nature of the raceway and it's graceful trotters. You can always find a card game somewhere in town with like minded poker fans where you don't have to give up a percentage to the house and run the risk of loosing yours as you play. Granted my opinion stems from the fact that my cousin Leo Gentner owned "Gentner's Hotel" a roadhouse/tavern that stood just across from the "Downs" and the warm childhood memories that remain.
It was a different time, and we all know that times change and those who fail to adapt to change soon face extinction. The small grocer that served the neighborhood has been replaced by the ever-expanding super-market, the hardware store where you could by nails and screws made right here in the U.S.A. from a bin are disappearing, and taverns that felt like a second home with hosts like "Leo" are withering as the big chains move in. The trotters at the "Downs" represent a shrinking share of horse racing in favor of the flats that tear out of the gate with very little or none of real finesse exhibited by a driver as he controls the animal and maintains the pace. I suppose that soon the trotters at the "Downs" will be a distant memory as the faster paced "Vegas" style gambling moves in.
On the other hand the increase in all sorts other related activities prostitution, loan sharking, strong arm robberies will create the need for more police, para-medics, pawn shops, and jail space. The package will be sold as another scheme to create jobs and improve the quality of life and it's a good bet that the community will take the bait and rush headlong into another evolutionary change for the community until all that is left is the memories of what was.
This passed friday night enjoyed a great dinner at a local resturant here in town with my Neice,Nephew and their Son.We all then went to the casino (BD), my Wife won enough to cover our dinners and drinks, my Neice won enough to cover the whole evenings costs, all in a half hour. So if you play your cards right and excerise control, you to can be a winner:>)
Ed, I don't mind a rake if the service is good and the dealers are professional. It allows me to concentrate on my game to a greater degree than the average home game.
And the distopian scenario you paint is rather far-fetched if things are managed well, which the Downs has shown it can do with its current level of gaming.
Heck, why not? They are already breaking a contract right now. That is what Batavia needs, another place to waste your hard earn dollar for what in return, stress, depression, addiction, a false hope that our life will become better if, we win the jack pot? Oh, let’s not forget it would help bring in money for some local hotels, restaurants and other small businesses. Traffic will increase even more in an already congested area.
Like Ed stated, "On the other hand the increase in all sorts other related activities prostitution, loan sharking, strong arm robberies will create the need for more police, para-medics, pawn shops, and jail space."
Ron, congrats to your wife and niece for their modest winnings this time.
Howard is right about most people can control themselves but, when they cannot it becomes another taxpayer's problem.
I thought all this money that was coming from all this gambling was spose to go for the schools in new york state...I quess its just a fun way to pay for the schools...Help our educational system and gamble more...
Mike, that comment from a credit union manager was from pre-2008, so I guess you're right that the number doesn't hold up now. But aside from the dollar figure the point is still valid. The best way to get $50,000 or $100,00 is to save it.
I know we're not talking about establishing Atlantic City North in Batavia, but I have a friend who serves as a pastor in Atlantic City, and the amount of time he spends working with people damaged by gambling is huge. Poverty, wrecked marriage, unattended children, crime, additional policing, court time all become part of the local mix. And it's not a slam-dunk that gambling boosts the local economy either. Any locality considering the introduction or expansion of gambling should certainly study that. .
I suppose it's true that gambling only becomes a problem for some, not all - similar to alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, guns and everything else. Good for Irene, for knowing when to step away, but I know plenty who have taken food money to the bingo hall. Different communities assess the cost/benefit of those things in different ways. Some states go gung-ho for gambling, but others have determined that it would be counterproductive. Some allow for sale of medicinal marijuana, and others will lock you up. But the question was "would you like to see Casino-gambling at Batavia Downs?", not "should gambling be banned?". My vote was "no", I would not like to see that.
So Ron and I are in the winner's column - walking away with more than we started with. The casinos that advertise on WWKB conclude their ads with "you're gonna win, you're gonna win". Quite a claim. Win what?
Sorry to disappoint Howard, I am not a Conservative or Liberal. As far as telling people how to live their life, not my job but, I like being objective to things and making aware more than one side of a story. I was not being sarcastic about some local jobs benefitting from a full casino or that you bring some criminal element to mix.
I just believe there are better ideas to bring to Batavia than a casino. Not to mention that it already violates the agreement between New York State and the Seneca Nations. It is amazing how NYS overlooks something and not others.
BTW, isn't the Media the ones who sway people how to live or think by using half truth, biases, political view and self opinion rather than fact?
I had dinner at the Ruth's Chris inside the Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs not that long ago. We had to walk past all the various slot machines to get into the restaurant. We spent a good two hours inside and the people that were parked on a stool in front of a machine when we went in were still in that exact same spot when we came out. Doesn't sound like much fun to me, but to each his own I guess.
To those that believe a full blown casino will be a giant boon to the area, drive up to Niagara Falls near the Seneca Niagara Casino. It's a ghost town once you're off the casino property.
Hello John, I not saying Indian cannot own them. I am saying the Seneca Nations signed an agreement/contract with New York State about them running casinos in the State of New York. That the Seneca Nations wanted sole control over slots. That is why they are withholding payment from the State of New York. Look up the fact. New York State has held cigarette companies from delivering their products from the reservation until, they charge non-Indians taxes on the sales. NYS is wrong for that and per the treaty only the federal government has the right to ask. However, like most lawyers they call it as "How you interpret it". The Seneca Nations are a sovereign nation and really do not have an economic boost. I do believe if, they use our social services that they should take a share in supporting those programs.
Now you may not see it as being fair for the Seneca Nations to hold control but, considering the fact that NYS is taking away more of their livelihood I agree they should. Obliviously, New York is feeling the pinch from the Nations withholding payment otherwise, why would they strongly consider casinos now. Especially with this nation in an economic crisis.
"The vast majority of people gamble responsibly" How does one quantify that statement without knowing the financial situations of those involved?
Gaming is thought of by many as just a form of entertainment. Unfortunately it is a form of entertainment that does not have a fixed cost. Sporting events, movies, cultural events have fixed costs, you go out, you spend "x" amount of dollars and go home. Gaming by it's nature is designed to entice the player to continue spending in order to continue "winning", or continue spending in order to recoup earlier losses. I would assert that there are relatively few who can on a consistent basis, enter a gaming facility with a set amount and without regularly pushing past it in order to break even or recoup.
I get the argument that just because it is addictive it shouldn't be outlawed, since we would have to outlaw a whole bunch of currently legal activities and substances, and the nanny state runs amok (as if it already weren't!). I just think the long term negatives far outweigh any initial bump in revenues.
With BD being close by, I would rather spend my entertainment dollars there, rather than a Bills or Sabres game.
The couple of times I have been there has cost far less than either of the 2 venues mentioned.
If a person can't set and hold a limit on how much to spend, I would suggest not going.
I made out pretty good a couple times, and not so good a couple times as well. The bottom line is, I enjoyed
myself each time, win, lose, or draw.
Jeff, if 2 guys stop at the bar after work, and 1 has a couple of drinks and goes home, while the other sits there and gets hammered, should we close the bar?
The answer to your question is: you win a shot of adrenaln(sic) that makes you feel good for a short time. I prefer to call the operations on Park Road as the paper exchange.
Kevin, Niagara Falls area where the Seneca casino is located has improved dramatically. I prefer the vacant lots and absence of people over what was there previously, crackhouses, prostitution, drug dealers right on Ferry Ave. and much squalor.
John, right on! why should a group of people have preferential treatment over other NYS residents.
And I love table games, which defies my vote. I voted no. Not because of any moral pontification, which we all are entitled to; no, my negative view is it would be run by NYS government. Right there, you have the main reason it would fail. The state would screw up a wet dream.
Frank, that analogy doesn't fit. Bar owners are supposed to be aware of overconsumption and cut people off. Casinos are not. As long as the gamer can continue to borrow after his own money runs out, hit the conveniently located ATM in the casino, or max out credit cards, the depths of indebtedness are almost endless. Having been an Employee Assistance Program Coordinator for 15 years, I've listened to far too many stories of good, hard-working folks getting consumed by gambling, getting in financial holes that take years to get out of, and families torn apart by so called entertainment. We can paint all the rosy, positive attributes on this we want but there is a real drain on real people due to the easy access to casinos. Batavia can and should try to do better than the quick simple answer to economic woes found in casino style gaming.
Bud, you are so right on. They do have one of the best beef on weck sandwiches in this area and well worth walking in just for a fun lunch with friends.
The criminal behaviors Bud describes haven't disappeared. They simply migrated to other parts of the city. I was in the immediate area of the casino the Saturday before last at 9PM. It's abandoned and dark (I was somewhat surprised by the lack of street lights), totally unwelcoming. The implied message is clear - stay in the casino, there's no reason to go anywhere else.
By the way, if you're looking for a really good Beef on Weck, go to the Anchor Bar in Buffalo. It's one of the best I've ever had. For something a little closer try the one at the Log Cabin Inn in Indian Falls. Lorraine's Place in Castile makes a very good one as well, although it will be different than what you normally expect.
From a local perspective, I do not view casino gambling at Batavia Downs to be a bad idea. It's not like a proposed casino in the middle of a poor neighborhood or anywhere near one, it's where there is already commercial development and would seek to increase economic activity in the area. It would have a direct revenue benefit and would increase tourism to our county and to Batavia, people already come from Buffalo and Rochester and for a full blow casino, they may come from even further rather than going to Turning Stone.
If there is one thing that I have very little patience for it's nostalgia as an economic development strategy. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have some historic preservation and to learn from local history, but at the same time we can't let obsessing over not wanting to let go of the past prevent us from moving forward. Buffalo recently had an 18% growth in construction and has an unemployment rate of 7.5%, lower than the national average, all the conditions are right for the Queen City to become 'the comeback kid', that growth will spill over and will be aided by projects like the agri-business park yes, Batavia Downs. Casino gaming can only help us in that endeavor, Genesee County already has a great business community and it would only be helped by it.
"Change is the law of life, and those who look only to the present and the past are certain to miss the future." - John F. Kennedy
This is exactly the kind of stuff we need to read on this topic. Good link. When a new enterprise enters the community promising jobs and then sucks the life out of the local economy it's hard to call it positive. Businesses closing, crime up, a jewel facility surrounded by a dead zone. .
This reminds me of when the Rochester Riverside Convention Center was proposed. The developer had all the charts showing revenue, jobs, etc. But when mid-sized cities all add convention centers the market becomes saturated. They end up having to underbid each other for the same number of conventions and trade shows. The promised results do not materialize. Adding a new casino may saturate the market, too. And the result of Batavia having a casino will be Rochester and Buffalo creating their own casinos in response because they don't want revenue flowing away. .
Kevin, are you saying that locals shouldn't even go to the casino for a meal, even if they have no intention of gambling? The places you mentioned are good, I brought up a local, close by, place that has a surprisingly good beef of weck.
Jeff, I believe it would be the bartender who would shut an intoxicated person off, but speaking from expierience, it doesn't happen, unless the person is causing a problem. And what do we do with food addicts, throw them out of McDonalds. As a society, we need to stop coddling those who have no self control.If one doesn't have the money to gamble, why in hell would he/she go to a casino? Do they think they may just walk in, spend a few bucks, and hit the jackpot? That type of thinking is unrealistic, I understand the odds are against me, why can't they.
What about klepto maniacs, should we close all the stores so they won't be tempted to steal?
People with addictions have to look in the mirror, and see who is the problem and stop blaming their problems on others.
Bud posted his thoughts on the area surrounding the Seneca Niagara Casino. You agreed with him and then brought up the sandwich, leading me to the conclusion you had one while in that particular venue.
I heard a radio commercial today for a concert being held there featuring everyone's Christmas favorites, which reinforces the point I was making. They are giving the consumer more and more reasons to spend all their dollars on site. Surrounding businesses are going to suffer as a result.
I don't buy into the argument that if gaming is allowed at Batavia Downs people from all over Western NY will be automatically drawn here. If gaming comes here it also will be coming to Finger Lakes Racetrack, which cuts into the Rochester Demographic. The Seneca Niagara Casino and the Niagara Fallsview Casino are to the West. The Seneca Allegany Casino is to the South. Additionally, various decision makers in the Rochester Area have been pushing for a casino to revitalize downtown. Gamblers will have plenty of options available to them.
Kevin said " They are giving the consumer more and more reasons to spend all their dollars on site. Surrounding businesses are going to suffer as a result. "
No surrounding businesses suffered, because there were few in the area to begin with. I find the effort made to clean up the surrounding area as a valuable one. It may entice new development if there is no riff-raff, but cleansing takes time.
Bud said, "Not because of any moral pontification, which we all are entitled to; no, my negative view is it would be run by NYS government. Right there, you have the main reason it would fail. The state would screw up a wet dream."
Kevin said, "Bud posted his thoughts on the area surrounding the Seneca Niagara Casino. You agreed with him and then brought up the sandwich, leading me to the conclusion you had one while in that particular venue."
I agree with the above statement made by Bud.
Yes, I have been at the casino for lunch. I've also been to the Log Cabin and the Anchor Bar. Your point?
Speaking from a gamblers perspective. I go to play the horses when they are here. I only go "upstairs" to get a draft beer on occasion and might walk through the casino area to get back to the track. Other than that I rarely stop at a machine. When I do I will put in a $20 bill, if it evaporates quickly I don't put in another. My point is it's a fact that each machine is "generating" $180 per day. In simple terms "profit" for the casino each day! So you have to figure how often will my $$ be casino profit versus my own? Not many for me. I agree with Frank, SELF CONTROL. Nobody is pushing you to go there. Bring on the full blown casino. Good for Batavia!
there's no " Don't care one
there's no " Don't care one way or the other " choice.
"Gaming" is the word the
"Gaming" is the word the industry likes to use for itself. You can see why: "gaming" connotes "fun!" The industry billboards show the same: a happy couple with big smiles marveling at the tumbling dice and flying cards. Who wouldn't want to be them?
"Gambling" is a word I find much more accurate. "Gambling" in my mind connotes "addiction", "risk", "a not so subtle way to drain the poor and middle class", "the house never loses", "a horrible way to stimulate a local economy", "organized crime", "political hack appointments", etc.
I bet (sic) if the poll question used the word" gambling" instead of "gaming" the results would be measurably different.
By the way, I have never purchased a lottery ticket or entered a casino. One time, just to say I'd been there, I crossed over into Nevada at Lake Tahoe. The casino was built right to the edge of the state line. I didn't go in, but looked through the door. In the middle of the day it was dark and filled with flashing lights, all carefully designed to numb intelligence and reinforce addictive behavior.
While I have never paid for a lottery ticket, I did find an unused one while raking leaves one day when I lived in Rochester. I scratched it off and won $10. I'm ahead, and will stay that way.
A credit union manager I know noticed in interviewing loan applicants about their spending habits learned to ask about their lottery ticket purchases each week. "I buy two or three" was the invariable answer. (similar to the "I only had a couple of drinks - but that's another story). She did some calculating and figured that if instead of playing lottery they put that money in savings at the end of twenty years they'd have $100,000 saved. I could do a lot of fun with that!
By the way, I am not a kill-joy. I like fun.
A few years ago some friends
A few years ago some friends and I went to the Home Show and 'WON' some free Batavia Downs merchandise--that we had to go upstairs and sign up for one of their member cards to get. We also got $5 of free play on those cards. Guess how much we spent? The $5 they gave us for free. We thought it was interesting that in all of the pictures of the 'Big Winners' the people looked exhausted, stoned or like zombies. If you've seen their add in the Genesee County travel guide (and elsewhere) there's a man with a huge excited smile, clutching a handful of $1 bills! I think the total amount is less than $10! So is the man excited because he WON $10 or because he managed to walk away with any money at all? If you ever drive by there, you never see a HAPPY person leaving, and it seems the busiest days are the days when people get their Social Security checks. How would allowing Casino style gaming be a positive at all?
http://digital.turn-page.com/
http://digital.turn-page.com/title/5936 Look for page 7 I think.
The vast majority of people
The vast majority of people gamble responsibly. Should they be denied the chance to do something they enjoy because a minority of people develop gambling addictions?
Should we outlaw alcohol because some people become alcoholics?
Prohibition didn't work.
Changing the state's constitution to allow a full range of table games at Batavia Downs and similar locations would not only be good for the local economy, it just makes sense.
As a poker player, I'm eager to see the Downs be able to offer card games.
I banned myself from Batavia
I banned myself from Batavia Downs almost two years ago. I work just down the road from there, and when they first put those slots in over there, I could NOT pass by and just GO HOME after work - so I was there FIVE NIGHTS A WEEK. Lost LOTS of money over there - LOTS. Luckily, my nephew told me that HE had banned himself from Batavia Downs, and after thinking about it for a couple of months, and then adding up all the money I lost over there, I decided to ban myself, too. BEST MOVE I'VE MADE IN YEARS. If I still want to gamble, it's only an hour away - Hamburg, Seneca, Finger Lakes - but that's been enough of a deterrent to keep me from going ALL the way THERE anymore since March, when I lost $200 in - less than an hour !!!!!! I've also, since then, been able to pretty much ignore Quick Draw (aka Crack Draw) where I work, and VERY SELDOM any more even buy scratch-off or even regular NY Lottery tickets.
So FOR ME, I could care less - I won't be going in there no matter WHAT they add. I draw a line, however, at telling OTHER people what to do with THEIR time and money.
Howard, the idea of turning
Howard, the idea of turning the "Batavia Downs" into a full blown casino devalues the historic nature of the raceway and it's graceful trotters. You can always find a card game somewhere in town with like minded poker fans where you don't have to give up a percentage to the house and run the risk of loosing yours as you play. Granted my opinion stems from the fact that my cousin Leo Gentner owned "Gentner's Hotel" a roadhouse/tavern that stood just across from the "Downs" and the warm childhood memories that remain.
It was a different time, and we all know that times change and those who fail to adapt to change soon face extinction. The small grocer that served the neighborhood has been replaced by the ever-expanding super-market, the hardware store where you could by nails and screws made right here in the U.S.A. from a bin are disappearing, and taverns that felt like a second home with hosts like "Leo" are withering as the big chains move in. The trotters at the "Downs" represent a shrinking share of horse racing in favor of the flats that tear out of the gate with very little or none of real finesse exhibited by a driver as he controls the animal and maintains the pace. I suppose that soon the trotters at the "Downs" will be a distant memory as the faster paced "Vegas" style gambling moves in.
On the other hand the increase in all sorts other related activities prostitution, loan sharking, strong arm robberies will create the need for more police, para-medics, pawn shops, and jail space. The package will be sold as another scheme to create jobs and improve the quality of life and it's a good bet that the community will take the bait and rush headlong into another evolutionary change for the community until all that is left is the memories of what was.
This passed friday night
This passed friday night enjoyed a great dinner at a local resturant here in town with my Neice,Nephew and their Son.We all then went to the casino (BD), my Wife won enough to cover our dinners and drinks, my Neice won enough to cover the whole evenings costs, all in a half hour. So if you play your cards right and excerise control, you to can be a winner:>)
Ed, I don't mind a rake if
Ed, I don't mind a rake if the service is good and the dealers are professional. It allows me to concentrate on my game to a greater degree than the average home game.
And the distopian scenario you paint is rather far-fetched if things are managed well, which the Downs has shown it can do with its current level of gaming.
james, that credit manager
james, that credit manager you know wasn't very accuratwe with those calculations, unless she was very, very optimistic with her interest rates.
Just sayin'....
Heck, why not? They are
Heck, why not? They are already breaking a contract right now. That is what Batavia needs, another place to waste your hard earn dollar for what in return, stress, depression, addiction, a false hope that our life will become better if, we win the jack pot? Oh, let’s not forget it would help bring in money for some local hotels, restaurants and other small businesses. Traffic will increase even more in an already congested area.
Like Ed stated, "On the other hand the increase in all sorts other related activities prostitution, loan sharking, strong arm robberies will create the need for more police, para-medics, pawn shops, and jail space."
Ron, congrats to your wife and niece for their modest winnings this time.
Howard is right about most people can control themselves but, when they cannot it becomes another taxpayer's problem.
I thought all this money that
I thought all this money that was coming from all this gambling was spose to go for the schools in new york state...I quess its just a fun way to pay for the schools...Help our educational system and gamble more...
John, I thought you were a
John, I thought you were a conservative. Why do you want to tell other people how to live their lives?
Mike, that comment from a
Mike, that comment from a credit union manager was from pre-2008, so I guess you're right that the number doesn't hold up now. But aside from the dollar figure the point is still valid. The best way to get $50,000 or $100,00 is to save it.
I know we're not talking about establishing Atlantic City North in Batavia, but I have a friend who serves as a pastor in Atlantic City, and the amount of time he spends working with people damaged by gambling is huge. Poverty, wrecked marriage, unattended children, crime, additional policing, court time all become part of the local mix. And it's not a slam-dunk that gambling boosts the local economy either. Any locality considering the introduction or expansion of gambling should certainly study that. .
I suppose it's true that gambling only becomes a problem for some, not all - similar to alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, guns and everything else. Good for Irene, for knowing when to step away, but I know plenty who have taken food money to the bingo hall. Different communities assess the cost/benefit of those things in different ways. Some states go gung-ho for gambling, but others have determined that it would be counterproductive. Some allow for sale of medicinal marijuana, and others will lock you up. But the question was "would you like to see Casino-gambling at Batavia Downs?", not "should gambling be banned?". My vote was "no", I would not like to see that.
So Ron and I are in the winner's column - walking away with more than we started with. The casinos that advertise on WWKB conclude their ads with "you're gonna win, you're gonna win". Quite a claim. Win what?
Sorry to disappoint Howard, I
Sorry to disappoint Howard, I am not a Conservative or Liberal. As far as telling people how to live their life, not my job but, I like being objective to things and making aware more than one side of a story. I was not being sarcastic about some local jobs benefitting from a full casino or that you bring some criminal element to mix.
I just believe there are better ideas to bring to Batavia than a casino. Not to mention that it already violates the agreement between New York State and the Seneca Nations. It is amazing how NYS overlooks something and not others.
BTW, isn't the Media the ones who sway people how to live or think by using half truth, biases, political view and self opinion rather than fact?
We have all this now, but
We have all this now, but only aboriginal people (Indians) can own them. Why? If one group can have them, then everyone should have the opportunity
I had dinner at the Ruth's
I had dinner at the Ruth's Chris inside the Mohegan Sun Pocono Downs not that long ago. We had to walk past all the various slot machines to get into the restaurant. We spent a good two hours inside and the people that were parked on a stool in front of a machine when we went in were still in that exact same spot when we came out. Doesn't sound like much fun to me, but to each his own I guess.
To those that believe a full blown casino will be a giant boon to the area, drive up to Niagara Falls near the Seneca Niagara Casino. It's a ghost town once you're off the casino property.
Hello John, I not saying
Hello John, I not saying Indian cannot own them. I am saying the Seneca Nations signed an agreement/contract with New York State about them running casinos in the State of New York. That the Seneca Nations wanted sole control over slots. That is why they are withholding payment from the State of New York. Look up the fact. New York State has held cigarette companies from delivering their products from the reservation until, they charge non-Indians taxes on the sales. NYS is wrong for that and per the treaty only the federal government has the right to ask. However, like most lawyers they call it as "How you interpret it". The Seneca Nations are a sovereign nation and really do not have an economic boost. I do believe if, they use our social services that they should take a share in supporting those programs.
Now you may not see it as being fair for the Seneca Nations to hold control but, considering the fact that NYS is taking away more of their livelihood I agree they should. Obliviously, New York is feeling the pinch from the Nations withholding payment otherwise, why would they strongly consider casinos now. Especially with this nation in an economic crisis.
A full operating casino is
A full operating casino is not the answer for Batavia or Genesee County.
"The vast majority of people
"The vast majority of people gamble responsibly" How does one quantify that statement without knowing the financial situations of those involved?
Gaming is thought of by many as just a form of entertainment. Unfortunately it is a form of entertainment that does not have a fixed cost. Sporting events, movies, cultural events have fixed costs, you go out, you spend "x" amount of dollars and go home. Gaming by it's nature is designed to entice the player to continue spending in order to continue "winning", or continue spending in order to recoup earlier losses. I would assert that there are relatively few who can on a consistent basis, enter a gaming facility with a set amount and without regularly pushing past it in order to break even or recoup.
I get the argument that just because it is addictive it shouldn't be outlawed, since we would have to outlaw a whole bunch of currently legal activities and substances, and the nanny state runs amok (as if it already weren't!). I just think the long term negatives far outweigh any initial bump in revenues.
With BD being close by, I
With BD being close by, I would rather spend my entertainment dollars there, rather than a Bills or Sabres game.
The couple of times I have been there has cost far less than either of the 2 venues mentioned.
If a person can't set and hold a limit on how much to spend, I would suggest not going.
I made out pretty good a couple times, and not so good a couple times as well. The bottom line is, I enjoyed
myself each time, win, lose, or draw.
Jeff, if 2 guys stop at the bar after work, and 1 has a couple of drinks and goes home, while the other sits there and gets hammered, should we close the bar?
The answer to your question
The answer to your question is: you win a shot of adrenaln(sic) that makes you feel good for a short time. I prefer to call the operations on Park Road as the paper exchange.
a couple of
a couple of comments...
Kevin, Niagara Falls area where the Seneca casino is located has improved dramatically. I prefer the vacant lots and absence of people over what was there previously, crackhouses, prostitution, drug dealers right on Ferry Ave. and much squalor.
John, right on! why should a group of people have preferential treatment over other NYS residents.
And I love table games, which defies my vote. I voted no. Not because of any moral pontification, which we all are entitled to; no, my negative view is it would be run by NYS government. Right there, you have the main reason it would fail. The state would screw up a wet dream.
Frank, that analogy doesn't
Frank, that analogy doesn't fit. Bar owners are supposed to be aware of overconsumption and cut people off. Casinos are not. As long as the gamer can continue to borrow after his own money runs out, hit the conveniently located ATM in the casino, or max out credit cards, the depths of indebtedness are almost endless. Having been an Employee Assistance Program Coordinator for 15 years, I've listened to far too many stories of good, hard-working folks getting consumed by gambling, getting in financial holes that take years to get out of, and families torn apart by so called entertainment. We can paint all the rosy, positive attributes on this we want but there is a real drain on real people due to the easy access to casinos. Batavia can and should try to do better than the quick simple answer to economic woes found in casino style gaming.
I have to laugh... They try
I have to laugh...
They try to get you to quit smoking...disgusting and filthy habit.
They try to get you to quit drinking...ruins individuals and families.
They try to get you to quit gambling...causes loan sharking...prostitution...destroys families.
Comes budget time...where do there go for revenue?
CIGARETTES......BOOZE......GAMBLING !!!!
Bud, you are so right on.
Bud, you are so right on. They do have one of the best beef on weck sandwiches in this area and well worth walking in just for a fun lunch with friends.
The criminal behaviors Bud
The criminal behaviors Bud describes haven't disappeared. They simply migrated to other parts of the city. I was in the immediate area of the casino the Saturday before last at 9PM. It's abandoned and dark (I was somewhat surprised by the lack of street lights), totally unwelcoming. The implied message is clear - stay in the casino, there's no reason to go anywhere else.
Some recommended reading about how businesses in Niagara Falls are faring with their casino - http://artvoice.com/issues/v5n8/there_goes_the_neighborhood
By the way, if you're looking for a really good Beef on Weck, go to the Anchor Bar in Buffalo. It's one of the best I've ever had. For something a little closer try the one at the Log Cabin Inn in Indian Falls. Lorraine's Place in Castile makes a very good one as well, although it will be different than what you normally expect.
From a local perspective, I
From a local perspective, I do not view casino gambling at Batavia Downs to be a bad idea. It's not like a proposed casino in the middle of a poor neighborhood or anywhere near one, it's where there is already commercial development and would seek to increase economic activity in the area. It would have a direct revenue benefit and would increase tourism to our county and to Batavia, people already come from Buffalo and Rochester and for a full blow casino, they may come from even further rather than going to Turning Stone.
If there is one thing that I have very little patience for it's nostalgia as an economic development strategy. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have some historic preservation and to learn from local history, but at the same time we can't let obsessing over not wanting to let go of the past prevent us from moving forward. Buffalo recently had an 18% growth in construction and has an unemployment rate of 7.5%, lower than the national average, all the conditions are right for the Queen City to become 'the comeback kid', that growth will spill over and will be aided by projects like the agri-business park yes, Batavia Downs. Casino gaming can only help us in that endeavor, Genesee County already has a great business community and it would only be helped by it.
"Change is the law of life, and those who look only to the present and the past are certain to miss the future." - John F. Kennedy
This is exactly the kind of
This is exactly the kind of stuff we need to read on this topic. Good link. When a new enterprise enters the community promising jobs and then sucks the life out of the local economy it's hard to call it positive. Businesses closing, crime up, a jewel facility surrounded by a dead zone. .
This reminds me of when the Rochester Riverside Convention Center was proposed. The developer had all the charts showing revenue, jobs, etc. But when mid-sized cities all add convention centers the market becomes saturated. They end up having to underbid each other for the same number of conventions and trade shows. The promised results do not materialize. Adding a new casino may saturate the market, too. And the result of Batavia having a casino will be Rochester and Buffalo creating their own casinos in response because they don't want revenue flowing away. .
Thanks for the laugh, your
Thanks for the laugh, your comment was great about NYSGOs could screw up a wet dream.
Richard amazing how thinks
Richard amazing how thinks turned around. Great comment.
Kevin, are you saying that
Kevin, are you saying that locals shouldn't even go to the casino for a meal, even if they have no intention of gambling? The places you mentioned are good, I brought up a local, close by, place that has a surprisingly good beef of weck.
Jeff, I believe it would be
Jeff, I believe it would be the bartender who would shut an intoxicated person off, but speaking from expierience, it doesn't happen, unless the person is causing a problem. And what do we do with food addicts, throw them out of McDonalds. As a society, we need to stop coddling those who have no self control.If one doesn't have the money to gamble, why in hell would he/she go to a casino? Do they think they may just walk in, spend a few bucks, and hit the jackpot? That type of thinking is unrealistic, I understand the odds are against me, why can't they.
What about klepto maniacs, should we close all the stores so they won't be tempted to steal?
People with addictions have to look in the mirror, and see who is the problem and stop blaming their problems on others.
Bud posted his thoughts on
Bud posted his thoughts on the area surrounding the Seneca Niagara Casino. You agreed with him and then brought up the sandwich, leading me to the conclusion you had one while in that particular venue.
I heard a radio commercial today for a concert being held there featuring everyone's Christmas favorites, which reinforces the point I was making. They are giving the consumer more and more reasons to spend all their dollars on site. Surrounding businesses are going to suffer as a result.
I don't buy into the argument that if gaming is allowed at Batavia Downs people from all over Western NY will be automatically drawn here. If gaming comes here it also will be coming to Finger Lakes Racetrack, which cuts into the Rochester Demographic. The Seneca Niagara Casino and the Niagara Fallsview Casino are to the West. The Seneca Allegany Casino is to the South. Additionally, various decision makers in the Rochester Area have been pushing for a casino to revitalize downtown. Gamblers will have plenty of options available to them.
Kevin said " They are giving
Kevin said " They are giving the consumer more and more reasons to spend all their dollars on site. Surrounding businesses are going to suffer as a result. "
No surrounding businesses suffered, because there were few in the area to begin with. I find the effort made to clean up the surrounding area as a valuable one. It may entice new development if there is no riff-raff, but cleansing takes time.
Bud said, "Not because of any
Bud said, "Not because of any moral pontification, which we all are entitled to; no, my negative view is it would be run by NYS government. Right there, you have the main reason it would fail. The state would screw up a wet dream."
Kevin said, "Bud posted his thoughts on the area surrounding the Seneca Niagara Casino. You agreed with him and then brought up the sandwich, leading me to the conclusion you had one while in that particular venue."
I agree with the above statement made by Bud.
Yes, I have been at the casino for lunch. I've also been to the Log Cabin and the Anchor Bar. Your point?
Speaking from a gamblers
Speaking from a gamblers perspective. I go to play the horses when they are here. I only go "upstairs" to get a draft beer on occasion and might walk through the casino area to get back to the track. Other than that I rarely stop at a machine. When I do I will put in a $20 bill, if it evaporates quickly I don't put in another. My point is it's a fact that each machine is "generating" $180 per day. In simple terms "profit" for the casino each day! So you have to figure how often will my $$ be casino profit versus my own? Not many for me. I agree with Frank, SELF CONTROL. Nobody is pushing you to go there. Bring on the full blown casino. Good for Batavia!
Irene can u call
Irene can u call me?5852975585