It's pretty clear that our political system has deteriated to such an extent that the answer to this type of question is not based on fact anylonger. It has more to do with your political party.
Based on Pre-Christmas and post Christmas sales, there is an indication that consumer confidence is on the rise.
Charlie is right, how many of you answered based on your politics?
Sales tell us it has been a great holiday season so far. Comscore says holiday sales in the U.S. are approaching $25B, up 15% from last year. A record $1.25B was spent on Cyber Monday. We analyzed our customer data in the form of three benchmarks this week in order to look at the holiday season through the eyes of the customer:
1) Customer satisfaction: satisfaction is rebounding, and on Green Monday, it was nearly as high as it has been throughout the holiday season so far.
2) True Conversion Rates: “True” conversion rates are also higher than we’ve seen them in months. Retail sites are doing a good job of converting customers online this year.
3) Social Media Value: social media has limited value as a direct marketing tool but remains a huge influence on shopping habits and decisions.
Sadly, there is still a segment of our community who will be hurting come January.
Senior citizens, who rely on food stamps to supplement their food budget were hit with a decrease. I'd like to share a conversation I had earlier today.
An elderly lady came to me today and said she will now receive $99 a month for food stamps. Although she received a raise in Social Security, it will be depleted by cost of living increases, including her rent.
We figured out how far her $99 will go:
She will have $24.75 a week to spend on groceries.
This averages out to $3.53 a day
or, $1.17 a meal.
She does not receive any cash benefit, just the food stamps.
So, in the next few days, we'll work with her to put together meal plans and grocery lists that will make her food stamp benefit stretch while we take into consideration dietary requirements and restrictions.
With careful budgeting she can add $5 more per week. That is still under $30 a week.
I cringe when I read how people are sure that those on food stamps abuse the system; purchasing expensive cuts of meat; and buying lottery tickets. This elderly lady won't be abusing the system.
I have spent the better part of this afternoon sitting with her. We listed what she can and can't eat. It is obvious that this lady did not add to the Christmas buying boom for 2011 and, most likely, won't for 2012 either.
I defy anyone to come up with 3 healthy meals a day for less than $2 a meal. It isn't easy.
The economy would be even better if we could get thieves to pay for the $35.3billion worth of items they steal from retail stores every year :-)
My 401K is going gangbusters and has been since April of 2009. I'd say that's an indicator that the economy is doing well. I could be wrong about that but for years my 401K was a losing gamble. YDT rate of return on assets is 8.7%. I'm extremely happy with that.
Bea, one can't live on soup alone but one can make a great pot of 16 bean soup that goes a long way as a filler. Thank goodness for food pantries because I have known people collecting social program services who had more food stored in their cupboards than they could ever possibly eat and they got it all from food pantries. Her coat closet was loaded with canned and dry goods. I was stunned when I saw all of it.
"All you had to do was go to the mall to figure this one out. I've never seen stores so busy." People tripping over each other for once a year, unrealistic marketing ploys is not an economic indicator, go to the same mall on a Tuesday in mid January.
If it makes people feel better to scour the media for conflated economic bright spots, then so be it, but reality is reality regardless of how much lipstick you put on the pig. We used to measure economic health on simple things like the unemployment rate, the housing market, manufacturing. Since they have exhausted ways to make these bleak numbers look good, they just start making up new economic indicators to try and sell us on an improving economy.
Doug, I think it's great that everyone you know is working, everyone I know is not. You can't evaluate our nations economy based on your 401K and personal sphere of acquaintances.
Doug, everyone should live in your world. Everyone is working. They have full pantries and they take advantage of the give aways..of course, that means they have transportation to do so.
Bean soup is the answer to a diet for an elderly person?
God bless you and your's. I should have just posted this earlier today and had a ready made answer to her problem.
Jeff, everyone we know isn't working yet but, more and more are finding work. Sales are up, unemployment is dropping. The stock market is steadily improving. I know the right was counting on the economey plummeting into the ground for political purposes but, it seams the American spirt is on the come back. Time for a positive message from the other guys running for office, don't you think?
I digress, I guess my world is small and encapsulated and here I thought I lived in the same world as everyone else. Just when I thought I was living in the real world, I get schooled .
Bea, I was actually offering suggestions, not trying to be facetious. Are there no food pantries in Batavia or the surrounding areas? Soup actually used to be a staple food and seems to have gone by the way side. Did you think I was trying to be mean? It's easy to sound callous even when one is trying not to be. I had no clue she had no transportation.
The woman I was referring to with the full coat closet of canned goods was a single mother in her early 40's working part time and collecting benefits. She used to go to the food pantry run by her church. Yes, she had transportation.
...And Jeff, you pretty much simplified a few things I offered up as examples of an improving economy. Things in my tiny world that I see improving. Excuse me for being upbeat. I promise to never share any good fortune of my own ever again. I said my 401K was "an" indicator, not "THE" indicator that the economy was doing well. I like to think of something being 1/4 full, not 3/4 empty.
Charlie, I'm not just trying to be a naysayer for politics sake but the unemployment numbers are terribly skewed by not accounting for people simply leaving the job search altogether. I would like to be here saying that the economy is on the mend but too many contradicting indicators and nuanced(that is putting it politely) reports give me doubt. Finding new ways to define odor does not mean crap doesn't stink.
Well Jeff, there you have it. You're a self admitted pessimist. Even though all indicators point to an improving economy, you still focus on the things that are still troubling the world. Troubling parts of the world will never go away. With that being said, does that mean the economy will never get better?
Jeff, I agree the recovery has a long ways to go but, things are improving. There are just too many reasons to believe we are inching out of the downward cycle.
I'll also say that presidental politics is the worst thing for our economy. Maybe things could be faster, that's were the politics belong. Not fighting the fact that we are recovering.
Doug, you spelled Realist wrong. Do I think the economy will ever get better? Yes, if and when government (and that includes both parties) realizes that there role is not to fix, save, or grow the economy. It is to foster an environment where the economy can accomplish those things on it's own.
Charlie : "I'll also say that presidental politics is the worst thing for our economy." I could not agree more, quote of the night!
Jeff - The 'leaving the workforce' claim is also skewed because of our older population leaving the workforce due to age and others leaving the workforce due to non-economic concerns (having kids, sick family members etc) and are all lumped together. That argument is petulant and really is not well thought out. The unemployment rate is finally falling and people are starting to go back to work, under the Obama Presidency the stock market has gone from a trading volume of around 8,000 to around 12,000, the debt from the Bush tax cuts has also accumulated a bigger share of our national debt than any Obama spending combined. That is not under dispute, that is a fact, I'm sorry that it does not benefit the omnipresent and never-ending campaign to defeat the President that started the moment he won the election in 2008. If the Democrats acted this way towards President Bush, the Republicans would be all but calling them traitors.
Jeff - Also, pointing out someones spelling mistakes is petulant and ridiculous. People who try to make an argument about style are usually pretty weak on substance.
Observations on employment here and now from us are kinda skewed this time of year. Remember we are in the Christmas season still and usually right after inventories done in the month of January there are a whole bunch of layoffs. Having done some merchindising work for many years in retail this pattern is very well known. I mean I'm glad but if you look back on jobs news everyone made a big deal about lower joblessness in Nov and Dec, well duh it happens every year. Some retailers depend on this time to "try out" new employees as well, the rush and rumble of the holiday pace can really be a litmus test for where to trim off lesser motivated employees and hire better working and more efficient ones. LOL this may be a pessimistic view or just an observation of the regular ebb and flow. 1 months time will show it for sure, if we suddenly have a sudden increase in joblessness then my observation was correct. If not then I was dead wrong (and can be happy bout that)
I know people need to have a positive attitude but don't forget the 5.1 trillion we put on the credit card in the last 3 years (and the 10 trillion before that). That tax will have to be paid sometime. What would the economic situation look like if we actually paid our creditors.
The enormity of a trillion is sometimes lost after hearing it on a daily basis.
When you're ten days old you're 1 million seconds old ( 1,000,000 )
When you're thirty years old you're 1 billion seconds old ( 1,000,000,000 )
When you're 1 trillion seconds old ( 1,000,000,000,000 ) you're dead for thirty thousand years
All thanks to the retailers putting out great discounts too. If, the retailers did not lower prices the way they did, I think it would have been a different story.
Doug if, you are ever in the Town of Niagara, there is a small diner outside the main gate for the Airbase. It is called the "Gate House Cafe". Mondays Gordy serves a delicious 16 bean soup and his prices are cheap. Hours are 0700-1400 hours.
The situation Bea pointed out, is truly sad and should not be like that. The people who are now past working age were lied to and cheated, bluntly put. Social Security has not kept up with the true cost of living and many saw their pensions/retirement plans cut back, swept away or outright stolen when their employers failed. They were told they would be taken care of over and over again. If a lie is repeated enough, it becomes accepted as truth. They didn't see this coming. My age group (I'm 52) didn't really ever believe that SS would be there for us, and we weren't offered many jobs with pension plans. Yeah , I know, could've worked for the government, poor choices, blah blah blah. The government retirements aren't entirely safe anymore either. Most of us had to invest for ourselves (401k's and such) we know what's happened to that and I've read proposals that have the government seizing that and making us all become wards of the state. It used to be that buying a house was a secure investment that you could sell or reverse mortgage when you're older. We all know what happened there too. Those of us who are working, seem to be working harder and keeping less of it. Terry is quite right, the bills have to paid sometime. I don't have all the answers, but I do know it won't come from government anymore, you can point out all kinds of programs that worked in the past, but it truly is a different place now and big government is the problem, not the solution. Breaking up the unholy alliance between the political elite, multi-national corporations and the investor class is what we have to do. STOP supporting and voting for the hacks of the 2 big parties. they are screwing the middle and lower classes, They LIE, hello. Congressmen, Senators, State Senators and Assemblymen have a pension program we pay for AND they siphon SS for themselves, most are also wealthy to begin with, they don't care about this lady who has to try and eat on 99 bucks a month. How many others like her are there? Stop being complacent. Pay attention to the issues and candidate's positions and choose carefully. Shoot only half of registered voters actually vote in a good year, encourage others to pay attention. We are screwing ourselves. There is plenty of money coming into the government to help our elderly and sick and unemployed now. Reduce taxes and more will be able to donate more. Americans are good, most will help their neighbor if they can. We can work on slowly getting government out of the entitlement business later.
Doug, you got me on the their/there one, it was past my bedtime. I have been reading a lot of the writings of the founding fathers lately and one thing you don't get from their writings and speeches is the sense of government ownership/control of the economy. The economy was viewed as an entity that existed and thrived outside of government control. Before the enactment of the Constitution in 1787 and the onset of our modern, central governmental control over taxation and regulation, our economy was thriving. We were already leaders in agriculture, fishing, and manufacturing. At that time, I believe leaders in government realized that the economy belonged to the people, the entrepeneurs, the farmers, the citizens. Governments role was to tax and regulate at the most minimal level to ensure that laws were simply a framework for success and not an impedence to it (or in more modern terms, an open checkbook for political waste). Somewhere along the line governement got the bright idea that the economy belonged to Washington and that it was their job to dictate it's success and failure. I am not saying by any means that the enactment of the Constitution ushered in the basis for economic failure, statisitics and history show us otherwise. It is when the fundamental idea of governements role in the economy changed (both parties guilty) that our strength as a financial success story to the world began to wane.
We have now reached the point that when anyone suggests simplifying things by returning to basic ideas of taxation that don't require a massively complicated and bloated agency like the IRS, or suggesting that the Federal Reserve has gone way beyond it's reach and influence, those ideas are looked at as fringe lunacy and are immediately silenced.
When it comes to my faith in our economy to right itself I am an optimist, I just know that without a reversal in basic thinking and actions in Washington (again, both parties) about how that can be accomplished, I have serious doubts.
"STOP supporting and voting for the hacks of the 2 big parties. they are screwing the middle and lower classes, They LIE, hello. Congressmen, Senators, State Senators and Assemblymen have a pension program we pay for AND they siphon SS for themselves, most are also wealthy to begin with, they don't care about this lady who has to try and eat on 99 bucks a month."
David you know this applys to your boy Ron Paul. Your boy jumps around to whereever he believes he has a better chance. Remember Obama promises us changes for the better. Ron Paul is just another politician. We do not need lawyers or doctors running this country. We need a level head businessman who will know how to bring jobs back to this country. Paul is against the war on drugs because, it hurts doctors.? Paul also, states close our bases overseas but, where will people work? I do not see a plan for that.
When it comes down to it, "A politician is still a politician no matter what they say!" They are actors themselves, saying what you want to hear. We need to bring jobs back, we need to re-establish ourselves as an industrial nation. Meaning re-establishing companys that build better electronics, cars, technological advances than our foreign competitors. Control unions from taking advantage of businesses. Prices go up because, of greed rather than cost. From your own statement no one will fit the bill.
We run off all manufactoring in our country in the name of ecology and send it over seas where they dont care for the enviroment at all. We make it impossable to start any new industry and wonder where the jobs are.
As was yours Dave, I especially like your line "Breaking up the unholy alliance between the political elite, multi-national corporations and the investor class is what we have to do." Well said.
Manufacturing jobs are not going to return to the USA in the numbers that they used to. Period. Instead of worrying about how to create jobs by manipulating the economy, how about government studying and then creating an environment for entrepreneurs to flourish. How about allowing individuals and small companies to market their goods on an level field. I believe in American ingenuity and resourcefulness. Here's an opinion piece from an ordinary American, just like me (only much smarter) that explains it better: (great website in general BTW)
Rex - Manufacturing was run out of this country when we started gutted trade regulations that made America competitive. Our manufacturers can't compete with nations who can pay their workers for cents an hour. We should demand that they raise their worker standards and wages if we are going to trade with them. Environmental standards had nothing to do with it. A favorite Republican saying by Calvin Coolidge is "Don't expect to raise up the weak by pulling down the strong,". I think that we should start applying that mentality to our trade agreements.
Jeff - Those days were hardly all rosy, it was defined by booms and crashes before the federal government started actually governing. Why would we want to go backwards? If people really wanted things to go back to the way they were, insist on strong trade regulations, support unions and support infrastructure projects.
Dave - In between tinfoil hat style nuttery in warning America about the 'coming race war' and exposing the 'federal homosexual coverup on AIDS', Ron Paul believes in and wants to do otherwise crazy things like close all of our overseas bases, withdraw from NATO and thus destroy our relationships with our biggest allies, thinks that 9/11 was our fault because President Clinton launched cruise missiles into Afghanistan after Al-Qaeda bombed the USS Cole, go back to the gold standard (hello volatility) and thinks that people who get flooded out of their homes due to freak storms should be on their own.
Daniel, that is why I didn't want to imply that the Constitution was culpable in ushering in regulation run amok. The Constitution did bring centralized regulation to the Union and it was a good thing. It is over regulation that has been our demise. Yes, I want to go backwards and do so with the lessons learned that got us into the mess were are in now.
Dan: "Ron Paul wants to do otherwise crazy things like close all of our overseas bases, withdraw from NATO and thus destroying our relationships with our biggest allies, thinks that 9/11 was our fault because Clinton launched cruise missiles into Afghanistan after Al-Qaeda bombed the USS Cole, go back to the gold standard (hello volatility) and thinks that people who get flooded out of their homes due to freak storms should be on their own"
The only 2 crazy things there are not understanding FEMA should be disbanded and that states should have their own apparatus. FEMA has been shown to be rather inefficient and ineffective to say the least. And this:"thinks that 9/11 was our fault because Clinton launched cruise missiles into Afghanistan after Al-Qaeda bombed the USS Cole" Blow back goes back a lot farther than that, that stupid action was one more step along the way. The murder of the USS Cole sailors is near and dear to my heart, but lobbing cruise missiles at civilians who had nothing to do with it so some smarmy US President won't look weak was not the proper response.
Not one drop of steel is made in our country, We have gutted the railroads with regulations and paperwork to create trucking jobs. I agree that we need tariffs on trade goods from countrys that refuse to pay a fair wage. But we also regulate Bussniess's out of existance with unfair rules.Look at the fight to stop the pipeline from Canada. Unions have had good and bad effects on our country more bad than good anymore.
Rex, I love your generalities and exaggerations. Do you invent them yourself? Regardless whether the U. S. environment is worthy of being protected, U. S. corporations that chose to employ foreign labor did not require such excuse to abandon the domestic workforce. The corporations compared American average wage (currently about $18.00 per hour) to Mexico, $3.00 per hour; China, as low as $.75 per hour; Vietnam, $.50 per hour; Indonesia, $.25 per hour; India, $.20 per hour... It may be politically expedient to blame environmental policies for the manufacturing exodus, but the prime motivator was labor cost. ...Not having to operate a clean shop or comply with health and safety regulations is obviously part of the equation. Even the most derelict are not going to brag about saving money by compromising on worker health and safety.
In the mid to late 70s when the oil embargo had sent energy costs through the roof, many factories were moving operations south, to warmer climates with minimum energy costs and minimum wages. Therein was the initial environmental factor that led to the rusting of northern manufacturing supremacy. During the course of bean-counting costs of relocating to North Carolina, South Carolina and Arizona- the notion of curtailing factories all-together by out-sourcing to third-world countries must have seemed like a stroke of genius.
Now that the shoe has fallen... The aftermath of corporate greed: double-digit unemployment, revenue shortfalls, stagnant wages, budget gaps... It's time to wheel out the straw man!
Unions have fought for employees and demanded fair wages and benefits, as CM has pointed out, labor costs associated with not being able to compete with countries who have very little or no wage requirements and run sweatshop economies have drained our manufacturing base. If anything, unions have lifted up wages for everyone, including non union employees and in the process ensured consumerism.
Blaming the unions for the loss of manufacturing jobs is like saying a rope should have saved a man when he was on fire.
Blame it the corporations but it boils down to what people will pay for products. Why are we buying so many items from a country that is not even frendly towards us ? Corporate greed? No comsumer's demand the cheeper product and the corporations have to answer to stockholders ( your 401k) so they buy the cheep stuff. I may not have a degree in Econimics ( Hell I can barely spell) But I have learned alot on my 57 years on Earth.
Read his biography so, maybe I not the one for that comment. You can find a lot of information online. I haven't stated anything that not true. I do know all politicians are the same. Once in power it is hard to give it up and they seem to never get enough.
I just wish Colin Powell ran for President especially, since he hates the political arena.
Dan I would agree the Union have some of the responsibility for the loss of manufacturing job. Employees are protected by the Unions, therefore have to pay monthly dues. My brother works for delpi and was paid $30 per hour to put two parts together. Here I put my life on the line for this country and the public yet, I get paid less.
Unions were needed back in the day for workers safety, fair wages, wrongful firings, etc... However, we have OSHA in place for safety, wages have far exceeded fairness, company's have to keep lazy workers, etc...
Trade agreements, unions, medical services, welfare abuse, social security abuse, low tariffs, job opportunities, wasteful spending, corporate greed, political greed all have a part in the collapse of our economy.
Little hope and no change.
Little hope and no change. Wasn't that somebody's campaign slogan?
Maybe not.
It's pretty clear that our
It's pretty clear that our political system has deteriated to such an extent that the answer to this type of question is not based on fact anylonger. It has more to do with your political party.
The fact is our economy is slowly recovering.
Based on Pre-Christmas and
Based on Pre-Christmas and post Christmas sales, there is an indication that consumer confidence is on the rise.
Charlie is right, how many of you answered based on your politics?
Sales tell us it has been a great holiday season so far. Comscore says holiday sales in the U.S. are approaching $25B, up 15% from last year. A record $1.25B was spent on Cyber Monday. We analyzed our customer data in the form of three benchmarks this week in order to look at the holiday season through the eyes of the customer:
1) Customer satisfaction: satisfaction is rebounding, and on Green Monday, it was nearly as high as it has been throughout the holiday season so far.
2) True Conversion Rates: “True” conversion rates are also higher than we’ve seen them in months. Retail sites are doing a good job of converting customers online this year.
3) Social Media Value: social media has limited value as a direct marketing tool but remains a huge influence on shopping habits and decisions.
http://www.freedyourmind.com/freed_your_mind/2011/12/2011-holiday-seaso…
All you had to do was go to
All you had to do was go to the mall to figure this one out. I've never seen stores so busy.
Sadly, there is still a
Sadly, there is still a segment of our community who will be hurting come January.
Senior citizens, who rely on food stamps to supplement their food budget were hit with a decrease. I'd like to share a conversation I had earlier today.
An elderly lady came to me today and said she will now receive $99 a month for food stamps. Although she received a raise in Social Security, it will be depleted by cost of living increases, including her rent.
We figured out how far her $99 will go:
She will have $24.75 a week to spend on groceries.
This averages out to $3.53 a day
or, $1.17 a meal.
She does not receive any cash benefit, just the food stamps.
So, in the next few days, we'll work with her to put together meal plans and grocery lists that will make her food stamp benefit stretch while we take into consideration dietary requirements and restrictions.
With careful budgeting she can add $5 more per week. That is still under $30 a week.
I cringe when I read how people are sure that those on food stamps abuse the system; purchasing expensive cuts of meat; and buying lottery tickets. This elderly lady won't be abusing the system.
I have spent the better part of this afternoon sitting with her. We listed what she can and can't eat. It is obvious that this lady did not add to the Christmas buying boom for 2011 and, most likely, won't for 2012 either.
I defy anyone to come up with 3 healthy meals a day for less than $2 a meal. It isn't easy.
The economy would be even
The economy would be even better if we could get thieves to pay for the $35.3billion worth of items they steal from retail stores every year :-)
My 401K is going gangbusters and has been since April of 2009. I'd say that's an indicator that the economy is doing well. I could be wrong about that but for years my 401K was a losing gamble. YDT rate of return on assets is 8.7%. I'm extremely happy with that.
Bea, one can't live on soup
Bea, one can't live on soup alone but one can make a great pot of 16 bean soup that goes a long way as a filler. Thank goodness for food pantries because I have known people collecting social program services who had more food stored in their cupboards than they could ever possibly eat and they got it all from food pantries. Her coat closet was loaded with canned and dry goods. I was stunned when I saw all of it.
Maybe some are doing well but
Maybe some are doing well but I know plenty that are not.
"All you had to do was go to
"All you had to do was go to the mall to figure this one out. I've never seen stores so busy." People tripping over each other for once a year, unrealistic marketing ploys is not an economic indicator, go to the same mall on a Tuesday in mid January.
If it makes people feel better to scour the media for conflated economic bright spots, then so be it, but reality is reality regardless of how much lipstick you put on the pig. We used to measure economic health on simple things like the unemployment rate, the housing market, manufacturing. Since they have exhausted ways to make these bleak numbers look good, they just start making up new economic indicators to try and sell us on an improving economy.
Jeff, everyone I know is
Jeff, everyone I know is working. It might not be the job they were looking for but they couldn't afford to keep turning down jobs.
Doug, I think it's great that
Doug, I think it's great that everyone you know is working, everyone I know is not. You can't evaluate our nations economy based on your 401K and personal sphere of acquaintances.
Doug, everyone should live in
Doug, everyone should live in your world. Everyone is working. They have full pantries and they take advantage of the give aways..of course, that means they have transportation to do so.
Bean soup is the answer to a diet for an elderly person?
God bless you and your's. I should have just posted this earlier today and had a ready made answer to her problem.
Jeff, everyone we know isn't
Jeff, everyone we know isn't working yet but, more and more are finding work. Sales are up, unemployment is dropping. The stock market is steadily improving. I know the right was counting on the economey plummeting into the ground for political purposes but, it seams the American spirt is on the come back. Time for a positive message from the other guys running for office, don't you think?
I digress, I guess my world
I digress, I guess my world is small and encapsulated and here I thought I lived in the same world as everyone else. Just when I thought I was living in the real world, I get schooled .
:-)
Bea, I was actually offering
Bea, I was actually offering suggestions, not trying to be facetious. Are there no food pantries in Batavia or the surrounding areas? Soup actually used to be a staple food and seems to have gone by the way side. Did you think I was trying to be mean? It's easy to sound callous even when one is trying not to be. I had no clue she had no transportation.
The woman I was referring to with the full coat closet of canned goods was a single mother in her early 40's working part time and collecting benefits. She used to go to the food pantry run by her church. Yes, she had transportation.
No offense intended, Bea.
...And Jeff, you pretty much
...And Jeff, you pretty much simplified a few things I offered up as examples of an improving economy. Things in my tiny world that I see improving. Excuse me for being upbeat. I promise to never share any good fortune of my own ever again. I said my 401K was "an" indicator, not "THE" indicator that the economy was doing well. I like to think of something being 1/4 full, not 3/4 empty.
Charlie, I'm not just trying
Charlie, I'm not just trying to be a naysayer for politics sake but the unemployment numbers are terribly skewed by not accounting for people simply leaving the job search altogether. I would like to be here saying that the economy is on the mend but too many contradicting indicators and nuanced(that is putting it politely) reports give me doubt. Finding new ways to define odor does not mean crap doesn't stink.
Well Jeff, there you have it.
Well Jeff, there you have it. You're a self admitted pessimist. Even though all indicators point to an improving economy, you still focus on the things that are still troubling the world. Troubling parts of the world will never go away. With that being said, does that mean the economy will never get better?
Jeff, I agree the recovery
Jeff, I agree the recovery has a long ways to go but, things are improving. There are just too many reasons to believe we are inching out of the downward cycle.
I'll also say that presidental politics is the worst thing for our economy. Maybe things could be faster, that's were the politics belong. Not fighting the fact that we are recovering.
Doug, you spelled Realist
Doug, you spelled Realist wrong. Do I think the economy will ever get better? Yes, if and when government (and that includes both parties) realizes that there role is not to fix, save, or grow the economy. It is to foster an environment where the economy can accomplish those things on it's own.
Charlie : "I'll also say that presidental politics is the worst thing for our economy." I could not agree more, quote of the night!
Jeff, we agree on two things
Jeff, we agree on two things in one night! I'll leave it at that and won't press my luck!
You spelled "their" wrong
You spelled "their" wrong (just busting your nuggets). I agree it's not the gov's job to fix the economy. We're on the same page there.
Jeff - The 'leaving the
Jeff - The 'leaving the workforce' claim is also skewed because of our older population leaving the workforce due to age and others leaving the workforce due to non-economic concerns (having kids, sick family members etc) and are all lumped together. That argument is petulant and really is not well thought out. The unemployment rate is finally falling and people are starting to go back to work, under the Obama Presidency the stock market has gone from a trading volume of around 8,000 to around 12,000, the debt from the Bush tax cuts has also accumulated a bigger share of our national debt than any Obama spending combined. That is not under dispute, that is a fact, I'm sorry that it does not benefit the omnipresent and never-ending campaign to defeat the President that started the moment he won the election in 2008. If the Democrats acted this way towards President Bush, the Republicans would be all but calling them traitors.
http://jerrykhachoyan.com/people-leaving-the-workforce-means/
http://02varvara.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/01c-bush-vs-obama-job-grow…
http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=643&…
http://donklephant.com/2011/07/25/obama-vs-bush-a-debt-illustration/
Jeff - Also, pointing out
Jeff - Also, pointing out someones spelling mistakes is petulant and ridiculous. People who try to make an argument about style are usually pretty weak on substance.
Dan - I believe Jeff was
Dan - I believe Jeff was making clever point; Doug called him a pessimist and Jeff corrected his "spelling" of the word "realist."
Get it?
Brandon, I guess he didn't
Brandon, I guess he didn't actually read the paragraphs or he'd have realized that.
Observations on employment
Observations on employment here and now from us are kinda skewed this time of year. Remember we are in the Christmas season still and usually right after inventories done in the month of January there are a whole bunch of layoffs. Having done some merchindising work for many years in retail this pattern is very well known. I mean I'm glad but if you look back on jobs news everyone made a big deal about lower joblessness in Nov and Dec, well duh it happens every year. Some retailers depend on this time to "try out" new employees as well, the rush and rumble of the holiday pace can really be a litmus test for where to trim off lesser motivated employees and hire better working and more efficient ones. LOL this may be a pessimistic view or just an observation of the regular ebb and flow. 1 months time will show it for sure, if we suddenly have a sudden increase in joblessness then my observation was correct. If not then I was dead wrong (and can be happy bout that)
I know people need to have a
I know people need to have a positive attitude but don't forget the 5.1 trillion we put on the credit card in the last 3 years (and the 10 trillion before that). That tax will have to be paid sometime. What would the economic situation look like if we actually paid our creditors.
The enormity of a trillion is sometimes lost after hearing it on a daily basis.
When you're ten days old you're 1 million seconds old ( 1,000,000 )
When you're thirty years old you're 1 billion seconds old ( 1,000,000,000 )
When you're 1 trillion seconds old ( 1,000,000,000,000 ) you're dead for thirty thousand years
All thanks to the retailers
All thanks to the retailers putting out great discounts too. If, the retailers did not lower prices the way they did, I think it would have been a different story.
Doug if, you are ever in the
Doug if, you are ever in the Town of Niagara, there is a small diner outside the main gate for the Airbase. It is called the "Gate House Cafe". Mondays Gordy serves a delicious 16 bean soup and his prices are cheap. Hours are 0700-1400 hours.
The situation Bea pointed
The situation Bea pointed out, is truly sad and should not be like that. The people who are now past working age were lied to and cheated, bluntly put. Social Security has not kept up with the true cost of living and many saw their pensions/retirement plans cut back, swept away or outright stolen when their employers failed. They were told they would be taken care of over and over again. If a lie is repeated enough, it becomes accepted as truth. They didn't see this coming. My age group (I'm 52) didn't really ever believe that SS would be there for us, and we weren't offered many jobs with pension plans. Yeah , I know, could've worked for the government, poor choices, blah blah blah. The government retirements aren't entirely safe anymore either. Most of us had to invest for ourselves (401k's and such) we know what's happened to that and I've read proposals that have the government seizing that and making us all become wards of the state. It used to be that buying a house was a secure investment that you could sell or reverse mortgage when you're older. We all know what happened there too. Those of us who are working, seem to be working harder and keeping less of it. Terry is quite right, the bills have to paid sometime. I don't have all the answers, but I do know it won't come from government anymore, you can point out all kinds of programs that worked in the past, but it truly is a different place now and big government is the problem, not the solution. Breaking up the unholy alliance between the political elite, multi-national corporations and the investor class is what we have to do. STOP supporting and voting for the hacks of the 2 big parties. they are screwing the middle and lower classes, They LIE, hello. Congressmen, Senators, State Senators and Assemblymen have a pension program we pay for AND they siphon SS for themselves, most are also wealthy to begin with, they don't care about this lady who has to try and eat on 99 bucks a month. How many others like her are there? Stop being complacent. Pay attention to the issues and candidate's positions and choose carefully. Shoot only half of registered voters actually vote in a good year, encourage others to pay attention. We are screwing ourselves. There is plenty of money coming into the government to help our elderly and sick and unemployed now. Reduce taxes and more will be able to donate more. Americans are good, most will help their neighbor if they can. We can work on slowly getting government out of the entitlement business later.
Doug, you got me on the
Doug, you got me on the their/there one, it was past my bedtime. I have been reading a lot of the writings of the founding fathers lately and one thing you don't get from their writings and speeches is the sense of government ownership/control of the economy. The economy was viewed as an entity that existed and thrived outside of government control. Before the enactment of the Constitution in 1787 and the onset of our modern, central governmental control over taxation and regulation, our economy was thriving. We were already leaders in agriculture, fishing, and manufacturing. At that time, I believe leaders in government realized that the economy belonged to the people, the entrepeneurs, the farmers, the citizens. Governments role was to tax and regulate at the most minimal level to ensure that laws were simply a framework for success and not an impedence to it (or in more modern terms, an open checkbook for political waste). Somewhere along the line governement got the bright idea that the economy belonged to Washington and that it was their job to dictate it's success and failure. I am not saying by any means that the enactment of the Constitution ushered in the basis for economic failure, statisitics and history show us otherwise. It is when the fundamental idea of governements role in the economy changed (both parties guilty) that our strength as a financial success story to the world began to wane.
We have now reached the point that when anyone suggests simplifying things by returning to basic ideas of taxation that don't require a massively complicated and bloated agency like the IRS, or suggesting that the Federal Reserve has gone way beyond it's reach and influence, those ideas are looked at as fringe lunacy and are immediately silenced.
When it comes to my faith in our economy to right itself I am an optimist, I just know that without a reversal in basic thinking and actions in Washington (again, both parties) about how that can be accomplished, I have serious doubts.
"STOP supporting and voting
"STOP supporting and voting for the hacks of the 2 big parties. they are screwing the middle and lower classes, They LIE, hello. Congressmen, Senators, State Senators and Assemblymen have a pension program we pay for AND they siphon SS for themselves, most are also wealthy to begin with, they don't care about this lady who has to try and eat on 99 bucks a month."
David you know this applys to your boy Ron Paul. Your boy jumps around to whereever he believes he has a better chance. Remember Obama promises us changes for the better. Ron Paul is just another politician. We do not need lawyers or doctors running this country. We need a level head businessman who will know how to bring jobs back to this country. Paul is against the war on drugs because, it hurts doctors.? Paul also, states close our bases overseas but, where will people work? I do not see a plan for that.
When it comes down to it, "A politician is still a politician no matter what they say!" They are actors themselves, saying what you want to hear. We need to bring jobs back, we need to re-establish ourselves as an industrial nation. Meaning re-establishing companys that build better electronics, cars, technological advances than our foreign competitors. Control unions from taking advantage of businesses. Prices go up because, of greed rather than cost. From your own statement no one will fit the bill.
Well written Jeff. John;
Well written Jeff.
John; obviously you know nothing of Ron Paul
We run off all manufactoring
We run off all manufactoring in our country in the name of ecology and send it over seas where they dont care for the enviroment at all. We make it impossable to start any new industry and wonder where the jobs are.
As was yours Dave, I
As was yours Dave, I especially like your line "Breaking up the unholy alliance between the political elite, multi-national corporations and the investor class is what we have to do." Well said.
Manufacturing jobs are not
Manufacturing jobs are not going to return to the USA in the numbers that they used to. Period. Instead of worrying about how to create jobs by manipulating the economy, how about government studying and then creating an environment for entrepreneurs to flourish. How about allowing individuals and small companies to market their goods on an level field. I believe in American ingenuity and resourcefulness. Here's an opinion piece from an ordinary American, just like me (only much smarter) that explains it better: (great website in general BTW)
http://fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/ron-paul-deregulation-and-the-ame…
Rex - Manufacturing was run
Rex - Manufacturing was run out of this country when we started gutted trade regulations that made America competitive. Our manufacturers can't compete with nations who can pay their workers for cents an hour. We should demand that they raise their worker standards and wages if we are going to trade with them. Environmental standards had nothing to do with it. A favorite Republican saying by Calvin Coolidge is "Don't expect to raise up the weak by pulling down the strong,". I think that we should start applying that mentality to our trade agreements.
Jeff - Those days were hardly
Jeff - Those days were hardly all rosy, it was defined by booms and crashes before the federal government started actually governing. Why would we want to go backwards? If people really wanted things to go back to the way they were, insist on strong trade regulations, support unions and support infrastructure projects.
Dave - In between tinfoil hat
Dave - In between tinfoil hat style nuttery in warning America about the 'coming race war' and exposing the 'federal homosexual coverup on AIDS', Ron Paul believes in and wants to do otherwise crazy things like close all of our overseas bases, withdraw from NATO and thus destroy our relationships with our biggest allies, thinks that 9/11 was our fault because President Clinton launched cruise missiles into Afghanistan after Al-Qaeda bombed the USS Cole, go back to the gold standard (hello volatility) and thinks that people who get flooded out of their homes due to freak storms should be on their own.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/23/us-usa-campaign-paul-plots-id…
Daniel, that is why I didn't
Daniel, that is why I didn't want to imply that the Constitution was culpable in ushering in regulation run amok. The Constitution did bring centralized regulation to the Union and it was a good thing. It is over regulation that has been our demise. Yes, I want to go backwards and do so with the lessons learned that got us into the mess were are in now.
Dan: "Ron Paul wants to do
Dan: "Ron Paul wants to do otherwise crazy things like close all of our overseas bases, withdraw from NATO and thus destroying our relationships with our biggest allies, thinks that 9/11 was our fault because Clinton launched cruise missiles into Afghanistan after Al-Qaeda bombed the USS Cole, go back to the gold standard (hello volatility) and thinks that people who get flooded out of their homes due to freak storms should be on their own"
The only 2 crazy things there are not understanding FEMA should be disbanded and that states should have their own apparatus. FEMA has been shown to be rather inefficient and ineffective to say the least. And this:"thinks that 9/11 was our fault because Clinton launched cruise missiles into Afghanistan after Al-Qaeda bombed the USS Cole" Blow back goes back a lot farther than that, that stupid action was one more step along the way. The murder of the USS Cole sailors is near and dear to my heart, but lobbing cruise missiles at civilians who had nothing to do with it so some smarmy US President won't look weak was not the proper response.
Not one drop of steel is made
Not one drop of steel is made in our country, We have gutted the railroads with regulations and paperwork to create trucking jobs. I agree that we need tariffs on trade goods from countrys that refuse to pay a fair wage. But we also regulate Bussniess's out of existance with unfair rules.Look at the fight to stop the pipeline from Canada. Unions have had good and bad effects on our country more bad than good anymore.
Rex, I love your generalities
Rex, I love your generalities and exaggerations. Do you invent them yourself? Regardless whether the U. S. environment is worthy of being protected, U. S. corporations that chose to employ foreign labor did not require such excuse to abandon the domestic workforce. The corporations compared American average wage (currently about $18.00 per hour) to Mexico, $3.00 per hour; China, as low as $.75 per hour; Vietnam, $.50 per hour; Indonesia, $.25 per hour; India, $.20 per hour... It may be politically expedient to blame environmental policies for the manufacturing exodus, but the prime motivator was labor cost. ...Not having to operate a clean shop or comply with health and safety regulations is obviously part of the equation. Even the most derelict are not going to brag about saving money by compromising on worker health and safety.
In the mid to late 70s when the oil embargo had sent energy costs through the roof, many factories were moving operations south, to warmer climates with minimum energy costs and minimum wages. Therein was the initial environmental factor that led to the rusting of northern manufacturing supremacy. During the course of bean-counting costs of relocating to North Carolina, South Carolina and Arizona- the notion of curtailing factories all-together by out-sourcing to third-world countries must have seemed like a stroke of genius.
Now that the shoe has fallen... The aftermath of corporate greed: double-digit unemployment, revenue shortfalls, stagnant wages, budget gaps... It's time to wheel out the straw man!
Unions have fought for
Unions have fought for employees and demanded fair wages and benefits, as CM has pointed out, labor costs associated with not being able to compete with countries who have very little or no wage requirements and run sweatshop economies have drained our manufacturing base. If anything, unions have lifted up wages for everyone, including non union employees and in the process ensured consumerism.
Blaming the unions for the loss of manufacturing jobs is like saying a rope should have saved a man when he was on fire.
Blame it the corporations but
Blame it the corporations but it boils down to what people will pay for products. Why are we buying so many items from a country that is not even frendly towards us ? Corporate greed? No comsumer's demand the cheeper product and the corporations have to answer to stockholders ( your 401k) so they buy the cheep stuff. I may not have a degree in Econimics ( Hell I can barely spell) But I have learned alot on my 57 years on Earth.
Read his biography so, maybe
Read his biography so, maybe I not the one for that comment. You can find a lot of information online. I haven't stated anything that not true. I do know all politicians are the same. Once in power it is hard to give it up and they seem to never get enough.
I just wish Colin Powell ran for President especially, since he hates the political arena.
Dan I would agree the Union
Dan I would agree the Union have some of the responsibility for the loss of manufacturing job. Employees are protected by the Unions, therefore have to pay monthly dues. My brother works for delpi and was paid $30 per hour to put two parts together. Here I put my life on the line for this country and the public yet, I get paid less.
Unions were needed back in the day for workers safety, fair wages, wrongful firings, etc... However, we have OSHA in place for safety, wages have far exceeded fairness, company's have to keep lazy workers, etc...
Trade agreements, unions, medical services, welfare abuse, social security abuse, low tariffs, job opportunities, wasteful spending, corporate greed, political greed all have a part in the collapse of our economy.
John, were you in the Batavia
John, were you in the Batavia DMV a few months back? I was in there doing something and was talking to someone in uniform. That wasn't you, was it?
I was there in October and in
I was there in October and in uniform. I had to take my LT pins off. That is why your face seems familiar. Happy New Year.