If the parents school choice is other than the systems choice, the parents then should be responsible for transportation. The added burden should not be placed on the school systems budget.
Mark, I was refering to school choices within the system itself, my point was that if the parents choice of schools adds distance to the bussing routes, it should become their responsibility to provide the transportation.
If the parents are renters, they don't pay a dime in school taxes, and that's 50% of Batavia.
Hundreds of homeowners pay school taxes and don't have any children in schools.
Where I live, when you are 63+ homeowners don't pay school taxes. That will never happen in NYS.
Ron, I don't see that as much of a factor here in Batavia, as we are very limited in our choices beginning the next year. Primary, Intermediate, middle school, high school, St. Joe's Notre Dame is it.
Tim, While renters do not pay directly, they pay rent. School taxes are based on property values, multiple dwellig proerties tend to be valued higher and pay a higher tax ergo, renters may not pay directly, but taxes are paid based on the value of their residence.
As far as people without children, yes, they pay school taxes, they always have.
Personally, I see school choice as more of a Big City Problem anyways, as our choices in rural and small cities is pretty much limited.
Anything and everything outside of national defense, which is funded by money seized at the barrel of a gun (some call it taxes) should be examined to see if it can be privatized and the resultant portion of the seizures left with the owners of the money. Public Schools would be a good one.
It may surprise some, but I'm for school vouchers....especially in economically distressed areas. In many cases good, hard working and intelligent kids are stuck in schools that are failing them, they are forced to be surrounded by other students who not only do not value their education, but disrupt the learning process in a sometimes violent way. In urban areas unfortunately magnet schools and schools for high achievers like City Honors in Buffalo can only take so many students. I think that a good solution to this problem would be a voucher program that would allow students to leave, and attend private schools where they could achieve in a much better setting. Charter schools are a good part of this, but I think that we should go further.
Following Mark's logic, I should get a voucher for not sending ANY children to ANY school! In fact, I qualify for a voucher for minimizing my impact on public expenses of ALL kinds! ...But I am not so inclined to pursue it. I am willing to pay for the common good. Hopefully, the one-per-centers will someday follow my example.
Just how is that my logic Chris? I said that this is more a problem for big city schools than it was here in that we don't have a plethora of schools to choose from.
As far as busing and taxes go, that is the way it is under current law, what exactly are you accusing (falsely I might add) of me saying?
Quote: "If the parents are renters, they don't pay a dime in school taxes, and that's 50% of Batavia."
Are you saying that the owners of the rental property pay no school taxes? Your statement really isn't factual, Tim. Even though they're renting, that house still is assessed for school taxes so the renters in fact do pay school taxes.
Perhaps we also should engage more in vocational training. Although I value the classical, Greek style of education that the Jesuits offered at Canisius that went far beyond specific courses in my major, I understand that not every kid wants to go to college. We need plumbers and mechanics just as much as we need Doctors. I remember from high school that many of my friends were bored with school because it was on a track that headed for college, something that they weren't interested in. The BOCES program is a phenomenal asset, and I think that public schools should offer courses for students that are geared towards a technical education as well as a university one.
Also, we should put more emphasis on public speaking and have debates in civics and history classes. Regardless of field, the skill of being able to speak in front of a group and make a persuasive argument is invaluable.
Daniel, I agree with you on all of the above, but the debate is actually school vouchers. In the Urban environment, like Buffalo, detroit DC etc. it can make a hiuge impact as you sighted in Buffalo Schools.
In fact, the voucher program that was in place a few years ago was highlt praised across the nation until it was removed by congress under pressure of the dc teachers union.
It may not apply to us here in the county, but in the broader scope of the Nation as a whole it can have a very positive impact.
Dan, I'm not sure what you think of plumbers and mechanics but they all need a college degree these days. I have 28 years experience in commercial heating and AC (fully licensed for steam and refrigeration) and I tried to get into the prison to work in their power plant. I was turned down because I don't have an associates degree. 28 years of experience didn't matter.
Doug - I'm aware, and that's why need to put more emphasis on vocational training in our state colleges and universities. We have great assets in place already that are sadly underused.
Mark - I'm aware, but I was adding those things as an aside. I think that education should become a mainstay issue in American politics, and there should be a much bigger marketplace of ideas from across the spectrum.
You are so funny sometimes CM, that is not my logic, that is the way it is. When I sent my children to Catholic Elementary schools, I paid tuition, and school taxes, those that came from Albion to Batavia paid tuition and their local school taxes. I didn't complain then, it was the way it was.
School vouchers are really more for urban area schools where some schools in their district are failing, it enables some of lessor means to have some of the advantages similar to those that those of means can afford. I am not against that at all. What I am against is that some public schools spend up to $12,000 per student and have a graduation rate of 50%, we here are blessed with a much more effecient school system.
Up until 3 years ago, Washington DC ad a very successful voucher system, it was helping families in the capitol go to to private schools and many students of single parents and low income were able to help thier children who showed academic promise get a quality education just like the 1% as you put it. The only reason why that program stopped, was becasue the DC teachers unions pressured the Democratic controlled congress at the time and the president to end the program, nevermind that it was working. (The District of Columbia receives direct funding from congress just as we do from the state)
And another fact that you dismiss my editor/author friend, is the FACT that under NY State current law, if a parent chooses to send their child to Parochial or private school, that students home district MUST provide bussing if there is a student from that district that resides within 15 miles of the private/parochial school that they are attending. That is not my logic, that is the law.
Your statement "I am willing to pay for the common good. Hopefully, the one-per-centers will someday follow my example." is really totally out of sync with what I said and really hillarious in general. My reference was strictly speaking a response to the issue of transportation, but since you have brought it up.
Is it for the common good that inner city schools are paying twice per pupil what private and parochial schools are in the inner cities are and achieving less than 50% of the results?
Is it for the common good that poor children with strong academic ability be forced to remain in surroundings that stiffle rather than nurture their education in big city schools simply because they have no choice?
Perhaps the 'Common Good' may not exactly fit your or anyone else's political beliefs, perhaps the 'Common Good' is fleeting and may vary from community to community.
You very much misread my logic, I place education far ahead of most issues of the day. Could you possibly consider that school vouchers might be a plus for the 'Common Good' in that they afford opportunity where there was none for the poorest of poor?
The tendency when vouchers are discussed are to believe that everyone will flood to private schools or out of district schools to take advantage, historically in locations where vouchers were aaand in some cases are in place the opposite is true. Gifted students of any economic backround should have the opportunity to flourish, vouchers are a way to achieve that. Private schools, which include Charter Schools and Parochial Schools can be an integral part of giving and getting the best from students who show academic promise.
CM, the object of the 'Common Good' should be to educate children, not warehouse them.
And for those who read this, The schools in Genesee County both public and parochial are fine institutions, the poor quality I speak of has to do with troubled school systems in larger urban areas.
CM,
The idea of vouchers is to help the "99%", and is for the common good. And the school taxes paid by people who do not have children in school would still go to the public system. Why would anyone be against choice and giving kids a chance at a good education instead of leaving them in failing schools? Too bad Albany will not put this question on the ballot, it would pass easily.
CM, I am the one who pasted the link to the article promoting the idea of people without children not paying school taxes. Which, Tim Raines also wrote is being done in other states. I'm sure nowhere in NYS. You owe Mark an apology, as anyone being confused with me deserves. It's not my logic, I wish I was smart enough to have thought that up.
Seriously, a user fee system would be the way to fix the education system, actually government in general. The money saved in taxes by those without children would mostly be spent into the local economy, instead of funding over paid administrators and the demands of teacher's unions. I'd rather strengthen local small business and maybe even creating more need for technicians and tradespeople, like Dan was talking about. Trade associations would continue spending their own money, not taxpayers', to fund training programs for the people they'll need. Like many of them do now. John is right, it'll never be put to the voters, because the teacher's union is too powerful and won't let it.
For the record, as much as I dislike blowing my own horn, I too paid property taxes and private school tuition for 3 kids for years. We drove them everyday and picked them up until my oldest was old enough to drive, which added to the stress!! It was a financial hardship at times, but worth it. My wife and I believed that this would give our children the best chance at success at whatever they chose to do, and foster a lifetime desire to learn, instead of learning how to memorize what they're told and pass the test. I am proud of the people all 3 of them have become.
If the parents school choice
If the parents school choice is other than the systems choice, the parents then should be responsible for transportation. The added burden should not be placed on the school systems budget.
He's sort of on the right
He's sort of on the right track, but as usual does not go far enough
http://www.centerforsmallgovernment.com/small-government-proposals/the-…
The only thing is Ron, that
The only thing is Ron, that when you send your child to a school outside he system, the parents are still paying school taxes in that system.
Dave, thanks for the help.
Dave, thanks for the help.
Mark, I was refering to
Mark, I was refering to school choices within the system itself, my point was that if the parents choice of schools adds distance to the bussing routes, it should become their responsibility to provide the transportation.
@ Mark. If the parents are
@ Mark.
If the parents are renters, they don't pay a dime in school taxes, and that's 50% of Batavia.
Hundreds of homeowners pay school taxes and don't have any children in schools.
Where I live, when you are 63+ homeowners don't pay school taxes. That will never happen in NYS.
Tim- First I heard of that.
Tim-
First I heard of that. Where do you live and what school district?
Ron, I don't see that as much
Ron, I don't see that as much of a factor here in Batavia, as we are very limited in our choices beginning the next year. Primary, Intermediate, middle school, high school, St. Joe's Notre Dame is it.
Tim, While renters do not pay directly, they pay rent. School taxes are based on property values, multiple dwellig proerties tend to be valued higher and pay a higher tax ergo, renters may not pay directly, but taxes are paid based on the value of their residence.
As far as people without children, yes, they pay school taxes, they always have.
Personally, I see school choice as more of a Big City Problem anyways, as our choices in rural and small cities is pretty much limited.
Anything and everything
Anything and everything outside of national defense, which is funded by money seized at the barrel of a gun (some call it taxes) should be examined to see if it can be privatized and the resultant portion of the seizures left with the owners of the money. Public Schools would be a good one.
It may surprise some, but I'm
It may surprise some, but I'm for school vouchers....especially in economically distressed areas. In many cases good, hard working and intelligent kids are stuck in schools that are failing them, they are forced to be surrounded by other students who not only do not value their education, but disrupt the learning process in a sometimes violent way. In urban areas unfortunately magnet schools and schools for high achievers like City Honors in Buffalo can only take so many students. I think that a good solution to this problem would be a voucher program that would allow students to leave, and attend private schools where they could achieve in a much better setting. Charter schools are a good part of this, but I think that we should go further.
Following Mark's logic, I
Following Mark's logic, I should get a voucher for not sending ANY children to ANY school! In fact, I qualify for a voucher for minimizing my impact on public expenses of ALL kinds! ...But I am not so inclined to pursue it. I am willing to pay for the common good. Hopefully, the one-per-centers will someday follow my example.
Just how is that my logic
Just how is that my logic Chris? I said that this is more a problem for big city schools than it was here in that we don't have a plethora of schools to choose from.
As far as busing and taxes go, that is the way it is under current law, what exactly are you accusing (falsely I might add) of me saying?
Quote: "If the parents are
Quote: "If the parents are renters, they don't pay a dime in school taxes, and that's 50% of Batavia."
Are you saying that the owners of the rental property pay no school taxes? Your statement really isn't factual, Tim. Even though they're renting, that house still is assessed for school taxes so the renters in fact do pay school taxes.
Perhaps we also should engage
Perhaps we also should engage more in vocational training. Although I value the classical, Greek style of education that the Jesuits offered at Canisius that went far beyond specific courses in my major, I understand that not every kid wants to go to college. We need plumbers and mechanics just as much as we need Doctors. I remember from high school that many of my friends were bored with school because it was on a track that headed for college, something that they weren't interested in. The BOCES program is a phenomenal asset, and I think that public schools should offer courses for students that are geared towards a technical education as well as a university one.
Also, we should put more
Also, we should put more emphasis on public speaking and have debates in civics and history classes. Regardless of field, the skill of being able to speak in front of a group and make a persuasive argument is invaluable.
Daniel, I agree with you on
Daniel, I agree with you on all of the above, but the debate is actually school vouchers. In the Urban environment, like Buffalo, detroit DC etc. it can make a hiuge impact as you sighted in Buffalo Schools.
In fact, the voucher program that was in place a few years ago was highlt praised across the nation until it was removed by congress under pressure of the dc teachers union.
It may not apply to us here in the county, but in the broader scope of the Nation as a whole it can have a very positive impact.
Dan, I'm not sure what you
Dan, I'm not sure what you think of plumbers and mechanics but they all need a college degree these days. I have 28 years experience in commercial heating and AC (fully licensed for steam and refrigeration) and I tried to get into the prison to work in their power plant. I was turned down because I don't have an associates degree. 28 years of experience didn't matter.
Doug - I'm aware, and that's
Doug - I'm aware, and that's why need to put more emphasis on vocational training in our state colleges and universities. We have great assets in place already that are sadly underused.
Mark - I'm aware, but I was
Mark - I'm aware, but I was adding those things as an aside. I think that education should become a mainstay issue in American politics, and there should be a much bigger marketplace of ideas from across the spectrum.
The only thing is Ron, that
The only thing is Ron, that when you send your child to a school outside he system, the parents are still paying school taxes in that system.
You are so funny sometimes
You are so funny sometimes CM, that is not my logic, that is the way it is. When I sent my children to Catholic Elementary schools, I paid tuition, and school taxes, those that came from Albion to Batavia paid tuition and their local school taxes. I didn't complain then, it was the way it was.
School vouchers are really more for urban area schools where some schools in their district are failing, it enables some of lessor means to have some of the advantages similar to those that those of means can afford. I am not against that at all. What I am against is that some public schools spend up to $12,000 per student and have a graduation rate of 50%, we here are blessed with a much more effecient school system.
Up until 3 years ago, Washington DC ad a very successful voucher system, it was helping families in the capitol go to to private schools and many students of single parents and low income were able to help thier children who showed academic promise get a quality education just like the 1% as you put it. The only reason why that program stopped, was becasue the DC teachers unions pressured the Democratic controlled congress at the time and the president to end the program, nevermind that it was working. (The District of Columbia receives direct funding from congress just as we do from the state)
And another fact that you dismiss my editor/author friend, is the FACT that under NY State current law, if a parent chooses to send their child to Parochial or private school, that students home district MUST provide bussing if there is a student from that district that resides within 15 miles of the private/parochial school that they are attending. That is not my logic, that is the law.
Your statement "I am willing to pay for the common good. Hopefully, the one-per-centers will someday follow my example." is really totally out of sync with what I said and really hillarious in general. My reference was strictly speaking a response to the issue of transportation, but since you have brought it up.
Is it for the common good that inner city schools are paying twice per pupil what private and parochial schools are in the inner cities are and achieving less than 50% of the results?
Is it for the common good that poor children with strong academic ability be forced to remain in surroundings that stiffle rather than nurture their education in big city schools simply because they have no choice?
Perhaps the 'Common Good' may not exactly fit your or anyone else's political beliefs, perhaps the 'Common Good' is fleeting and may vary from community to community.
You very much misread my logic, I place education far ahead of most issues of the day. Could you possibly consider that school vouchers might be a plus for the 'Common Good' in that they afford opportunity where there was none for the poorest of poor?
The tendency when vouchers are discussed are to believe that everyone will flood to private schools or out of district schools to take advantage, historically in locations where vouchers were aaand in some cases are in place the opposite is true. Gifted students of any economic backround should have the opportunity to flourish, vouchers are a way to achieve that. Private schools, which include Charter Schools and Parochial Schools can be an integral part of giving and getting the best from students who show academic promise.
CM, the object of the 'Common Good' should be to educate children, not warehouse them.
And for those who read this, The schools in Genesee County both public and parochial are fine institutions, the poor quality I speak of has to do with troubled school systems in larger urban areas.
CM, The idea of vouchers is
CM,
The idea of vouchers is to help the "99%", and is for the common good. And the school taxes paid by people who do not have children in school would still go to the public system. Why would anyone be against choice and giving kids a chance at a good education instead of leaving them in failing schools? Too bad Albany will not put this question on the ballot, it would pass easily.
CM, I am the one who pasted
CM, I am the one who pasted the link to the article promoting the idea of people without children not paying school taxes. Which, Tim Raines also wrote is being done in other states. I'm sure nowhere in NYS. You owe Mark an apology, as anyone being confused with me deserves. It's not my logic, I wish I was smart enough to have thought that up.
Seriously, a user fee system would be the way to fix the education system, actually government in general. The money saved in taxes by those without children would mostly be spent into the local economy, instead of funding over paid administrators and the demands of teacher's unions. I'd rather strengthen local small business and maybe even creating more need for technicians and tradespeople, like Dan was talking about. Trade associations would continue spending their own money, not taxpayers', to fund training programs for the people they'll need. Like many of them do now. John is right, it'll never be put to the voters, because the teacher's union is too powerful and won't let it.
For the record, as much as I dislike blowing my own horn, I too paid property taxes and private school tuition for 3 kids for years. We drove them everyday and picked them up until my oldest was old enough to drive, which added to the stress!! It was a financial hardship at times, but worth it. My wife and I believed that this would give our children the best chance at success at whatever they chose to do, and foster a lifetime desire to learn, instead of learning how to memorize what they're told and pass the test. I am proud of the people all 3 of them have become.