Yes they can recruit players form any where. Notre Dame High School is a perfect example. Their players can come for any local school district. (Batavia, LeRoy, Alexander, Attica, Albion, Holley, Kendall, etc.) The only question is can they pay the tuition get to the school. In many instances the public school district is responsible for busing the student to Notre Dame.
Jason, don't worry about up or down votes, it has no effect. It's a form of expression for those who won't comment without the mask of a "internet handle" . I don't waste a second of time thinking about it and you shouldn't either.
Legit question Jason. Besides it's a free country and we should be allowed to ask any questions we want!
I'm interested in knowing what prompted this poll. Is someone in government actually wasting time trying to force private schools into their own sports leagues? I sure hope not - we have WAY bigger problems to resolve!!!
And why would this even be a problem? Aren't the parents of all private school students paying taxes AND private school tuition/fees on top of their taxes? If anyone deserves to be in the public sports leagues they do! Are the private schools really that much advantaged in sports? So they've recruited "better" athletes, so what! Want to win more? Compete! If you really think the odds are against you, there's no better feeling than to rise up and overcome. I played sports for Batavia High and we loved beating Notre Dame and their jocks. Who cares what talent is on any team - you still have to play the games and play as a team to win. Work hard and get better if you really think the private schools are stacked.
Let's put the whole issue to rest and go to the other extreme then - make ALL sports leagues private.
I believe the poll was a result of the Olean Coaches statement after loosing to Notre Dame
[Swanson also expressed some frustration with playing against a private school, which is something Setion VI teams don't face until they match up against Section V.
''It is tough. It's an inequality. Their players played hard and they were very good players and they did great things with the basketball. But when you're a small school like ours that graduates 30-something kids and you have to compete at that level It's just such a different field they get to draw from. .... "]
Robert,
I think this is because a team from a different section girls basketball complained about having to play a private school, which beat them. I think the game was one that Notre Dame won.
Mark and John are right. And a reader suggested it this morning and I thought -- why not -- a topic we've never covered before?
As for the up/down thumbs ... it's another engagement tool.
Whether we have real names or allow fake names, some people won't leave comments. There's something in online communities called the 90-9-1 rule.
Ninety percent of the people never leave comments, but just lurk; nine percent leave the occasional comment; one percent comment daily. That ratio doesn't change much no matter what you do.
BTW: my opinion ... I thought Coach Swanson's statement was a bit of a whine. He lost to a team that had lost five straight games to, Elba, which is a pretty small, rural school, before pulling out an upset victory over the former state champions. There's a reasonably good chance Sherman would have lost just as badly to Elba.
His comment about "this isn't the team we scouted" is more telling. He said ND hit more threes than expected, but ND has had good outside shooters all season. What changed was the man defense, which allowed Call to dog Sherman's best shooter and reign her in.
The fact is, it isn't about public vs. private. Swanson got out coached and his girls got out hustled.
That's a good point Jami. Are they not allowed to participate? After all as Bob says above, the parents do pay school tax even when they choose to school their children at home.
this is only an issue when sectional and states come into play. as far as I know , there isn't any recruiting going on for athletes , its for students . winning and the option for a kid to be involved in that ,recruits by itself . better coaches help too
Robert on this you and I disagree. The issue is the territory that private schools can draw from. Public schools are restricted to students only in their school district. Private schools have no such limitation.
Ted , You are correct , but as far as numbers go for section class breakdown . Rules apply for all. If a private draws to many students from other districts for a number of reasons(biggest reason is the individual student has problems at their public school). Then the private moves up a class with no guarantee that the students coming from public schools will be athletes or good enough athletes to make the teams .its a catch 22 but the fact is,the student athlete ratio is way higher at a private school compared to public . That results in more numbers for try outs and that equates to better talent at the Varsity level
Great point Jami! I met someone somewhere in my travels that home schooled but had a way for her children to participate in sports programs. That may have been another state or maybe the rules are different in other counties in NY?
Oh, what happens to Johnny who can't make the 45 player team at Batavia (or will ride the pines if he happens to make the team) but can play if he goes to Notre Dame as they only have 25 players on their team? If Notre Dame isn't allowed to play in public leagues they'd likely not have teams or they'd be forced to pay more to travel farther to find enough private teams to play. And that would help?
I am quite impressed that this topic is being discussed and debated on a website that I check each-and-every day. I no longer live in Batavia, but I do have plenty of family there, and I visit as often as I can. With that being said, I candidly give you my opinion on this issue:
This issue goes beyond the local reach. There are public schools all over the country that come up against this in all sports; boys and girls. Let's consider some of the facts. Geography is a real issue. A public school, regardless of their enrollment numbers, are restricted to a defined geographic area. A private school, regardless of their size, can draw from an unlimited pool of talent. None of this year's Section V champions (There were 10 this year) were large public schools. Bishop Kearney and Aquinas are private, but they play in higher classifications. BK, for example, has a BEDS number of 221, and they are in the highest class, AA1. Why? Not because of enrollment. Go watch them play and you will quickly realize why they are in the highest classification.
In my opinion, the private schools should be able to play anyone during the season. However, when it comes to sectional play, the public schools who are restricted to athletes from their geographic area should not have to compete against a private or prep school.
There is a purpose for using BEDS numbers for classification. Leveling the playing field based on enrollment is the only authentic way to reward student/athletes with the elusive section title. This design is meant to be applied to a public system.
It's not about coaching. It's not about the few players that suddenly find their way onto a public school's team because of recruiting. It's about healthy and fair competition at the scholastic level. The current model is broken. Just ask the girls from Sherman High School. They'll tell you all about the plight of a small town team having to face a private in their quest for a title.
Thomas You said...."biggest reason is the individual student has problems at their public school"
That is about as far from the truth as stating the world is flat, in fact, a statement like that is an insult to many parents who seek a private education and the schools themselves.
"Howard, in regards to the comments I made about Batavia ND and the private schools participating in the PUBLIC SCHOOL tournament, I would have to say that if the private schools would compete in the class according to the number of schools they draw from it would be a whole different story. Many of the private schools draw from 3, 4, or even 5 school districts located near them. If a public school were to bring in players from surrounding schools, that public school would be moved into classifications equal to the largest of the districts it drew plus it's own enrollment numbers which would put them in a much higher class. So if ND draws from Batavia for instance which is a B school, it should have to compete in the B classification or higher depending on what the total of the schools beds numbers came to. The public schools must follow these rules, the private schools do not have to. Public schools do merge districts to form sports teams but they must follow the state rules and are placed in the appropriate class according to the beds numbers of the larger school plus it's own. Another example, the Bishop Kearney boys play in Class AA, the Bishop Kearney girls should have to compete in the same class.
"If Sherman were able to draw girls from Clymer, Panama, and Chaut. Lake the 3 school districts around us and form a girls basketball team, we would have had no problem on Saturday. Maybe you could check into what schools these ND girls should be going to and get their BEDS numbers and add them up and see what classification the ND girls should be playing in according to the state break down in classifications. I'm sure the private schools would not like to compete"
Daniel - I have been checking in on the comments on and off all day and I have to say that I am most impressed by your assesment of the situation. Well done!
Look at the Bishop Kearney Boys Basketball team - they have two kids born and raised in Aftrica and magically appeared at BK. They both happen to be 6'10' and BK is in the State Final Four. Fair?
The latest "fad" are schools such as University Prep that are pulling kids from all over the Rochester area. Again, fair when a public school has boundries to live by?
As far as Catholic Schools go, there are alot of families who have several generations of kids that have gone to them. They are there for a Catholic Education. I get that. However, what hurts them is when a kid doesn't like his coach so Mommy and Daddy wisk them away to the local private school. What ever happened to learning how to cope with the situation and toughing it out? Those situations give private schools a black eye in my opioion (right or wrong thats how I see it. Shame on the private school for taking those kids in!)
I agree - play anyone you want all year long but when it comes to playoff time it is still the New York State PUBLIC High School Athletic Association (NYSPHSAA) Tournament! Have a seperate system for private schools.
I see Mr. Swanson, so if the Norte Dame Girls had not pulled off what was seen by most as an upset victory over Elba HS, and you have instead played Elba the outcome with certainty would have been different? That kind of strains creditability.
Your girls played hard, Norte Dame girls played hard, The Notre Dame team held your leading scorer in check, and took advantage of their ability to make outside shots, something that perhaps you should have been prepared for.
There is no shame in your girls effort what so ever, nor is there or should there be for the Notre Dame Girls, but I do question what the girls are being taught.
Excuses do not build character, and character building is what I always thought was what High School sports was about. My hat is off to your girls, they went a long way, and although they lost the game, they did not fail.
There are so many variables here that are not being considered, I was moved to comment though I had hoped to remain lurking like the 90%....
-NDHS has a student body of approximately 185 students. It is a very small school and not all students play a sport.
<br>
-Many of the NDHS students came from other Catholic private schools - including some of the top athletes over the years. In other words, the intention was for them to attend NDHS long before they were headed to high school. No public school is being robbed of an athlete.
<br>
-Most of their teams are scholar teams - or their average GPA is above 90 for the team. Are they attending NDHS solely based upon their athletic prowess, or is it because NDHS has award winning educational standards? Is it possible that each student has a different reason for attending NDHS?
<br>
-Are all private high schools created equal? How can NDHS compete against McQuaid Jesuit High School (830 boys in 7-12) if we refuse to factor in student body size?
<br>
-Does anyone know for a fact that star athletes at NDHS are the result of aggressive recruiting and were awarded full scholarship based solely upon their athletic prowess?
<br>
-What is the reason for the success of Batavia High School's basketball team this year? Is it a fluke or have those young men and their coaches earned every win, every basket? Is it because Notre Dame didn't steal enough players from their team this year? I think it is because those young men and their mentors have done an amazing job this season, and it isn't because they're a public school; it is because they are an awesome team.
<br>
Go Lady Irish and Go BHS boys!
Edited to add: Have you seen NDHS's athletic field, gym, and training facilities? Compare their facilities to your local public high school's facilities. Proof that a shoe-string budget has no bearing on the quality of a team.
I graduated from BHS in 1989, I played sports and went to ALL sporting events and we NEVER played against Notre Dame in Section 5. We did play them in the annual basketball tournaments held at GCC. Notre Dame played schools from Elba, Attica, Oakfield etc. BHS played schools from Rochester....not sure when Robert graduated but my brother played all sports in the 70's and I know he did not play Notre Dame. Never really saw a team of 45 players on a roster????
Aren't private schools able
Aren't private schools able to recruit players and offer scholarships?
Yes they can recruit players
Yes they can recruit players form any where. Notre Dame High School is a perfect example. Their players can come for any local school district. (Batavia, LeRoy, Alexander, Attica, Albion, Holley, Kendall, etc.) The only question is can they pay the tuition get to the school. In many instances the public school district is responsible for busing the student to Notre Dame.
-2 votes for asking a
-2 votes for asking a question? Howard, can we get rid of these already?
Jason, don't worry about up
Jason, don't worry about up or down votes, it has no effect. It's a form of expression for those who won't comment without the mask of a "internet handle" . I don't waste a second of time thinking about it and you shouldn't either.
Legit question Jason.
Legit question Jason. Besides it's a free country and we should be allowed to ask any questions we want!
I'm interested in knowing what prompted this poll. Is someone in government actually wasting time trying to force private schools into their own sports leagues? I sure hope not - we have WAY bigger problems to resolve!!!
And why would this even be a problem? Aren't the parents of all private school students paying taxes AND private school tuition/fees on top of their taxes? If anyone deserves to be in the public sports leagues they do! Are the private schools really that much advantaged in sports? So they've recruited "better" athletes, so what! Want to win more? Compete! If you really think the odds are against you, there's no better feeling than to rise up and overcome. I played sports for Batavia High and we loved beating Notre Dame and their jocks. Who cares what talent is on any team - you still have to play the games and play as a team to win. Work hard and get better if you really think the private schools are stacked.
Let's put the whole issue to rest and go to the other extreme then - make ALL sports leagues private.
I believe the poll was a
I believe the poll was a result of the Olean Coaches statement after loosing to Notre Dame
[Swanson also expressed some frustration with playing against a private school, which is something Setion VI teams don't face until they match up against Section V.
''It is tough. It's an inequality. Their players played hard and they were very good players and they did great things with the basketball. But when you're a small school like ours that graduates 30-something kids and you have to compete at that level It's just such a different field they get to draw from. .... "]
Robert, I think this is
Robert,
I think this is because a team from a different section girls basketball complained about having to play a private school, which beat them. I think the game was one that Notre Dame won.
Mark and John are right. And
Mark and John are right. And a reader suggested it this morning and I thought -- why not -- a topic we've never covered before?
As for the up/down thumbs ... it's another engagement tool.
Whether we have real names or allow fake names, some people won't leave comments. There's something in online communities called the 90-9-1 rule.
Ninety percent of the people never leave comments, but just lurk; nine percent leave the occasional comment; one percent comment daily. That ratio doesn't change much no matter what you do.
BTW: my opinion ... I thought Coach Swanson's statement was a bit of a whine. He lost to a team that had lost five straight games to, Elba, which is a pretty small, rural school, before pulling out an upset victory over the former state champions. There's a reasonably good chance Sherman would have lost just as badly to Elba.
His comment about "this isn't the team we scouted" is more telling. He said ND hit more threes than expected, but ND has had good outside shooters all season. What changed was the man defense, which allowed Call to dog Sherman's best shooter and reign her in.
The fact is, it isn't about public vs. private. Swanson got out coached and his girls got out hustled.
Thanks for the info guys!
Thanks for the info guys! And thanks for keeping the poll topics fresh Howard!
Just let the kids play!!! Win or lose, they learn something...
I would also love to see home
I would also love to see home schooled children be able to participate in public school sports and other activities!
That's a good point Jami. Are
That's a good point Jami. Are they not allowed to participate? After all as Bob says above, the parents do pay school tax even when they choose to school their children at home.
Tim Tebow........................
this is only an issue when
this is only an issue when sectional and states come into play. as far as I know , there isn't any recruiting going on for athletes , its for students . winning and the option for a kid to be involved in that ,recruits by itself . better coaches help too
Robert on this you and I
Robert on this you and I disagree. The issue is the territory that private schools can draw from. Public schools are restricted to students only in their school district. Private schools have no such limitation.
Ted , You are correct , but
Ted , You are correct , but as far as numbers go for section class breakdown . Rules apply for all. If a private draws to many students from other districts for a number of reasons(biggest reason is the individual student has problems at their public school). Then the private moves up a class with no guarantee that the students coming from public schools will be athletes or good enough athletes to make the teams .its a catch 22 but the fact is,the student athlete ratio is way higher at a private school compared to public . That results in more numbers for try outs and that equates to better talent at the Varsity level
Great point Jami! I met
Great point Jami! I met someone somewhere in my travels that home schooled but had a way for her children to participate in sports programs. That may have been another state or maybe the rules are different in other counties in NY?
Oh, what happens to Johnny who can't make the 45 player team at Batavia (or will ride the pines if he happens to make the team) but can play if he goes to Notre Dame as they only have 25 players on their team? If Notre Dame isn't allowed to play in public leagues they'd likely not have teams or they'd be forced to pay more to travel farther to find enough private teams to play. And that would help?
Just let 'em play.
Yep that would be like the
Yep that would be like the old days when we played St mary's of Lancaster, Desales of Lockport, St. Francis of Athol Springs, etc.
I am quite impressed that
I am quite impressed that this topic is being discussed and debated on a website that I check each-and-every day. I no longer live in Batavia, but I do have plenty of family there, and I visit as often as I can. With that being said, I candidly give you my opinion on this issue:
This issue goes beyond the local reach. There are public schools all over the country that come up against this in all sports; boys and girls. Let's consider some of the facts. Geography is a real issue. A public school, regardless of their enrollment numbers, are restricted to a defined geographic area. A private school, regardless of their size, can draw from an unlimited pool of talent. None of this year's Section V champions (There were 10 this year) were large public schools. Bishop Kearney and Aquinas are private, but they play in higher classifications. BK, for example, has a BEDS number of 221, and they are in the highest class, AA1. Why? Not because of enrollment. Go watch them play and you will quickly realize why they are in the highest classification.
In my opinion, the private schools should be able to play anyone during the season. However, when it comes to sectional play, the public schools who are restricted to athletes from their geographic area should not have to compete against a private or prep school.
There is a purpose for using BEDS numbers for classification. Leveling the playing field based on enrollment is the only authentic way to reward student/athletes with the elusive section title. This design is meant to be applied to a public system.
It's not about coaching. It's not about the few players that suddenly find their way onto a public school's team because of recruiting. It's about healthy and fair competition at the scholastic level. The current model is broken. Just ask the girls from Sherman High School. They'll tell you all about the plight of a small town team having to face a private in their quest for a title.
Thomas You said...."biggest
Thomas You said...."biggest reason is the individual student has problems at their public school"
That is about as far from the truth as stating the world is flat, in fact, a statement like that is an insult to many parents who seek a private education and the schools themselves.
Mel Swanson sent me the
Mel Swanson sent me the following e-mail:
"Howard, in regards to the comments I made about Batavia ND and the private schools participating in the PUBLIC SCHOOL tournament, I would have to say that if the private schools would compete in the class according to the number of schools they draw from it would be a whole different story. Many of the private schools draw from 3, 4, or even 5 school districts located near them. If a public school were to bring in players from surrounding schools, that public school would be moved into classifications equal to the largest of the districts it drew plus it's own enrollment numbers which would put them in a much higher class. So if ND draws from Batavia for instance which is a B school, it should have to compete in the B classification or higher depending on what the total of the schools beds numbers came to. The public schools must follow these rules, the private schools do not have to. Public schools do merge districts to form sports teams but they must follow the state rules and are placed in the appropriate class according to the beds numbers of the larger school plus it's own. Another example, the Bishop Kearney boys play in Class AA, the Bishop Kearney girls should have to compete in the same class.
"If Sherman were able to draw girls from Clymer, Panama, and Chaut. Lake the 3 school districts around us and form a girls basketball team, we would have had no problem on Saturday. Maybe you could check into what schools these ND girls should be going to and get their BEDS numbers and add them up and see what classification the ND girls should be playing in according to the state break down in classifications. I'm sure the private schools would not like to compete"
Daniel - I have been checking
Daniel - I have been checking in on the comments on and off all day and I have to say that I am most impressed by your assesment of the situation. Well done!
Look at the Bishop Kearney Boys Basketball team - they have two kids born and raised in Aftrica and magically appeared at BK. They both happen to be 6'10' and BK is in the State Final Four. Fair?
The latest "fad" are schools such as University Prep that are pulling kids from all over the Rochester area. Again, fair when a public school has boundries to live by?
As far as Catholic Schools go, there are alot of families who have several generations of kids that have gone to them. They are there for a Catholic Education. I get that. However, what hurts them is when a kid doesn't like his coach so Mommy and Daddy wisk them away to the local private school. What ever happened to learning how to cope with the situation and toughing it out? Those situations give private schools a black eye in my opioion (right or wrong thats how I see it. Shame on the private school for taking those kids in!)
I agree - play anyone you want all year long but when it comes to playoff time it is still the New York State PUBLIC High School Athletic Association (NYSPHSAA) Tournament! Have a seperate system for private schools.
I see Mr. Swanson, so if the
I see Mr. Swanson, so if the Norte Dame Girls had not pulled off what was seen by most as an upset victory over Elba HS, and you have instead played Elba the outcome with certainty would have been different? That kind of strains creditability.
Your girls played hard, Norte Dame girls played hard, The Notre Dame team held your leading scorer in check, and took advantage of their ability to make outside shots, something that perhaps you should have been prepared for.
There is no shame in your girls effort what so ever, nor is there or should there be for the Notre Dame Girls, but I do question what the girls are being taught.
Excuses do not build character, and character building is what I always thought was what High School sports was about. My hat is off to your girls, they went a long way, and although they lost the game, they did not fail.
There are so many variables
There are so many variables here that are not being considered, I was moved to comment though I had hoped to remain lurking like the 90%....
-NDHS has a student body of approximately 185 students. It is a very small school and not all students play a sport.
<br>
-Many of the NDHS students came from other Catholic private schools - including some of the top athletes over the years. In other words, the intention was for them to attend NDHS long before they were headed to high school. No public school is being robbed of an athlete.
<br>
-Most of their teams are scholar teams - or their average GPA is above 90 for the team. Are they attending NDHS solely based upon their athletic prowess, or is it because NDHS has award winning educational standards? Is it possible that each student has a different reason for attending NDHS?
<br>
-Are all private high schools created equal? How can NDHS compete against McQuaid Jesuit High School (830 boys in 7-12) if we refuse to factor in student body size?
<br>
-Does anyone know for a fact that star athletes at NDHS are the result of aggressive recruiting and were awarded full scholarship based solely upon their athletic prowess?
<br>
-What is the reason for the success of Batavia High School's basketball team this year? Is it a fluke or have those young men and their coaches earned every win, every basket? Is it because Notre Dame didn't steal enough players from their team this year? I think it is because those young men and their mentors have done an amazing job this season, and it isn't because they're a public school; it is because they are an awesome team.
<br>
Go Lady Irish and Go BHS boys!
Edited to add: Have you seen NDHS's athletic field, gym, and training facilities? Compare their facilities to your local public high school's facilities. Proof that a shoe-string budget has no bearing on the quality of a team.
Something somebody just
Something somebody just pointed out to me:
Class D in Section V is about 30 schools.
Class D in Section VI is like 11 schools.
It's a bigger mountain to climb in Section V to make it to the Far West Regionals.
I graduated from BHS in 1989,
I graduated from BHS in 1989, I played sports and went to ALL sporting events and we NEVER played against Notre Dame in Section 5. We did play them in the annual basketball tournaments held at GCC. Notre Dame played schools from Elba, Attica, Oakfield etc. BHS played schools from Rochester....not sure when Robert graduated but my brother played all sports in the 70's and I know he did not play Notre Dame. Never really saw a team of 45 players on a roster????