More women doing crime means big jump in jail expense for county

So how much of that 300k can be attributed to "The War on Drugs" bet anyone a Muller Greek Yogurt it's at least 2/3 ( 0r 66% or 198k).

I'll take that bet

Google is your friend, gentlemen. Let's see some vetted statistics in support of your propositions.

I made the bet, Mark. It's on you to prove me wrong

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=percent+of+female+jail+population+drug+charges

I'll check in on you boys in the morning.

I have requested the Breakdown from a friend in the Sherriff's department Dave, if he can give me the exact info he will. Until such time as he gets back to me however, I searched the Law and Order entries on this site, though not conclusive,

From that data, overwhelmingly, the arrest of women in Genesee county has been for Larceny, Burglary, DWI, Felony DWI, domestic assaults, violations of orders of protection, assault, harassment, failure to pay fines.and failure to comply with court orders

While there was about 10% of those posted arrest for possession of drugs, about another 5% were related to the theft of pills or failure to comply with the drug court. Far from 66%

That was going back 3 months on prior just from arrest reports where bail was required..

From last years Sheriff's Annual report, the average daily incarceration for female prisoners was 10, which includes those housed in surrounding counties and those awaiting bail. (Most of which DWI related)

Never the less I will wait for the reply from the department, however, based on what I dug up so far, the JAILED women on drug charges doesn't even approach 20% let alone 2/3rds But hey I could be wrong, and it's only a yogurt

I will still wait for this year's actual data BUT.....some food for thought

The Assumption that local jails are filled with primarily drug offenders might be a bit of a stretch, Citing the County Sheriff's 2011 Annual Report

Based just on the number of investigations Sales and posession charges of drugs is a mere 11.6% of ALL CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS - It is highly unlikely that, that low a percentage of investigations would lead to a disporportionate amount of incarcerations.

Further; While the amount of arrest/investgations may have increased by gender since this report was issued, there is nothing to indicate a statitisical change of types of arrest or investigations

Total MV/DWI/Accident related arrest 178 Men 146 Women 32

DRIVING WHILE INTOXICATED - FELONY 25
DRIVING WHILE INTOXICATED - MISDEMEANOR 131
DRIVING WHILE ABILITY IMPAIRED - VIOLATION 8
DRIVING WHILE ABILITY IMPAIRED - DRUGS 10
TOTALS 174

Total Criminal investigations 1371

AGGRAVATED HARASSMENT 36
ARSON 4
AGGRAVATED ASSAULT 28
BAD CHECK 11
BURGLARY 153
COERCION 4
CONSPIRACY 2
<strong>CRIMINAL POSSESSION CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE 60 <------ 4.3%</strong>
CRIMINAL POSSESSION FORGED INSTRUMENT 7
CRIMINAL POSSESSION STOLEN PROPERTY 12
CRIMINAL POSSESSION WEAPON 17
CRUELTY TO ANIMALS 3
CRIMINAL CONTEMPT 84
CRIMINAL IMPERSONATION 13
CRIMINAL MISCHIEF 159
<strong>CRIMINAL SALE CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE 28 <------- 2.0%
CRIMINAL SALE MARIJUANA 7 <------ 0.5%</strong>
CRIMINAL TAMPERING 13
CRIMINAL TRESPASS 18
DISORDERLY CONDUCT 42
ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION 1
ENDANGERING WELFARE CHILD 26
FALSE REPORTING INCIDENT 5
FALSIFY TAMPERING BUSINESS RECORDS 2
FIREWORKS 2
FORGERY/COUNTERFEITING 13
FRAUD 32
GRAND LARCENY 133
ROBBERY 3
SEX ABUSE 11
SEXUAL MISCONDUCT 4
SEX OFFENDER REGISTRY VIOLATION 1
SEX OFFENSES 7
SIMPLE ASSAULT 13
TRESPASS 74
UNLAWFUL IMPRISONMENT 2
UNLAWFUL DEALING WITH CHILD 8
<strong>UNLAWFUL POSSESSION MARIJUANA 67 <------ 4.8%</strong>
UNAUTHORIZED USE OF VEHICLE 11
HARASSMENT 103
IMMIGRATION 7
LARCENY 386
LIQUOR LAW VIOLATIONS 254
MENACING 8
MISSAPPLICATION OF PROPERTY 1
MOTOR VEHICLE THEFT 1
OTHER OFFENSES 30
<strong>POSSESSION HYPODERMIC NEEDLE 1 <----0.0007%</strong>
PROMOTING PRISON CONTRABAND 6
PUBLIC LEWDNESS 1
RAPE 10
RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT 5
RESISTING ARREST 2

Not looking good for me so far. I will be on the raod all day, so I'll check this in the evening.

Dave, I think your mistake was attributing the arrests to the "War on Drugs".
If you had only stated that drugs were probably (INVOLVED) in such-and-such percentage of arrests, you may have been more correct.

No proof here, just speculation. But, I'm gonna say that there are probably times when a TV is stolen from K-mart, it isn't always taken so the thief can catch up on Oprah. The stolen goods can be sold for pennies/dollar, and used to feed drug habits. Is that always the reason? Of course not. But, unless the thief admits that was the reason for their actions, the drug-related aspect may never become known.
That being said, there could be hundreds of arrests "because of drugs", but not "drug arrests". Thereby keeping such arrests out of the statistical arrests due to the "War on Drugs".

You are a wise man Mr. Hartgrove. ;)

One ing to consider in The Bet is the length of time the offenders (and suspects) spend in time and the offense they have committed or are suspected of.

My guess is at DUI suspects/offenders spend little time in jail, while War-On-Drug miscreants spend a month or even half year in jail.

Ironically, those same "miscreants" were very possibly busted at home, harming no one, while the DUI suspects'/offenders' crimes were due to their putting other people in danger.

I'm pulling for you, Dave.

Mark: Usually I don't like 'winks' from guys, but I'll make an exception this time. :)

According to Holdsworth Klimowski's web site, that company built Genesee County's 20,000 sq. ft. sheriff's office for $3.6 million. The same company did a similar but much larger 130,000 sq ft project including a new jail for Ontario County at $7 million. In Genesee County, my guess is that inclusion of a jail component must have been considered during the planning for the sheriff's office project, and was likely also considered for the courthouse project. Perhaps management didn't see the need or didn't like the price tag.

As far as I know, Genesee County's jail is adequate for the county's needs with the exception of female housing. I don't think too many are worried about having the biggest and best jail, although a modern facility is a nice to have. Genesee Justice does a good job with community supervision in order to minimize incarceration. But genesee Justice does not solve the problem of needing to ship out some females to other jails and apparently this cost is amounting to more than had been planned.

Even if the female housing cost remains flat at $300k per year, this will amount to the cost of a new jail over perhaps 15 years. I think Genesee County should investigate options to reduce or eliminate this outsourcing cost for female incarceration. I know that an idea was floated a couple of years ago to partner with Orleans County to build and share a new facility, which may be a good idea or perhaps not.

Another option may be to add on some female capability at the existing jail or via some additional facility. Could Genesee Justice be relocated and the existing jail expand into that portion of the building, in order to develop female housing capability?

True enough Ed, many crimes can be attributed to drug use, but that's not my point. It wasn't a mistake. I don't excuse theft for drug money or any reason, other than maybe stealing food because your children are hungry. I don't endorse that, and I doubt any of these women are there for stealing food because they had no other choice. To be truthful I expect drug arrests account for 40 -50%, but I didn't think anyone would take that bet. Legalizing drugs and shrinking the amount of police will cure a lot of minor infractions that turn into jail time because of repeat offender status. General bad attitudes and the need to control a situation I suspect many times turns a minor thing into an assault charge. The point here is many if not most of these women are being jailed for non-violent, bad choice types of crimes which should be dealt with outside of incarceration. The Sheriff says he needs another 220 grand, because he already spent it and the legislature rubber stamps it and doesn't ask questions. How many of these women could be helped back into productive society by Genesee Justice if they had some of that "extra" money. Or GCASA, or many private organizations if they had the funds to run a truly restorative program instead of what I suspect is patchwork? Where's this money coming from? What is getting cut out of the budget to pay for this? We have a highly touted and recognized program here in Genesee Justice, but we don't have money for it to run properly because we are too busy shuffling female prisoners around. Not to mention that it becomes difficult for someone to get employment in an already rough job market with a record, so it snowballs. If I see a proposal for a new jail, I'm stating here and now, I will take up the cause against it. If you see a fat bald guy standing in front of the county building during a legislature meeting with a sign that says "I Don't Think So" honk and wave if you're with me.

Mark, we may or may not get the numbers for the County Sheriff's Dept., either way I will be out in front of GCC by the clock at 6:30 PM, (1830 Navy time) ( Mickey's big hand on the six and his little one between the 6 & 7 for Marines) prior to our GCLP meeting at 7 which you are welcome to attend as is anyone else interested, at the very least you can meet Jim Rosenbeck and Lisa Whitehead 2 fine Batavians who would like to serve their friends and neighbors on Batavia City Council. They are worth the trip, so is the yogurt, me probably not so much. Tell me your favorite flavor.

I got the results (Women Inmates) I was referred to a Jail Officer and she was very helpful

Last Weeks Average

5 Violation of probation
1 Parole Violation
2 Larceny
1 Grand Larceny
1 Family Court Abuse Case
1 Criminal Contempt
1 Criminal Trespass
2 Criminal Contempt
1 Violation Of Court Order
1 Possession Of a Controlled Substance

When asked directly, she said the incarceration rate for strictly Drug possession, are most often referred directly to Genesee Justice, and that those women jailed for drug possession most often violated the terms and conditions of the drug court . Possession of controlled substances (i.e. pills, speed, cocaine and or Heroin) will likely find jail time but she never saw that amount exceed 25% of the population, Usually 10% or less.

She also said quite clearly, most women jailed have violated conditions of release by the judge at arraignment or awaiting a prison bed in the state system after sentencing..

I will not be able to attend tonight Dave, although I would have liked to, but strawberry is the answer, From one Old Fat Guy to another, I will have to look for Mickey's hands another time (soon I hope) as I am sure we could find much to discuss.

I'm sorry Mark, it's not tonight I forgot to add "Monday," it's Monday night, not tonight. My apologies. Thanks for getting the info and sharing it. So are the violations of parole and the criminal contempt charges the result of a drug bust and the conditions not being followed?

Some are the result of drug bust Dave, most are a result of petit larceny and violations of protection court orders though. (I asked the same question of her) She was very adamant, 25% tops and 10% the norm for strictly drug offences. She said that number is basically the same for male inmates as well. She also said that the courts are very cognizant of the additional cost to jail a women, and most often refer them to Genesee Justice as a matter of first resort.

All in all, although I wasn't surprised by the results, it was an extremely interesting conversation, it seems our local women folk are starting to catch up to men as far as property crimes and crimes against person.

That will be Strawberry for Monday Night LOL

Strawberry it shall be. I really do appreciate your taking an interest. I don;t have the tact to properly get this kind of information LOL. I do believe it is very important to look at this kind of issue in depth. I believe money and people's quality of life can be salvaged by thinking differently.

The one thing that struck me on this, and I do somewhat agree with you that Genesee Justice most often is the best solution, is that many of these women were in fact afforded that opportunity.

They failed to do what was necessary, so when you think about it, if given the break by the court initially, what do you do when the offender does not comply besides jail or heavy fines (And most likely they couldn't pay the fine)?

For anyone that I is interested, I received the following this evening from someone in Law Enforcement that was following this thread:(All Law Enforcement Agencies excluding State Police)

Women Arrested DEC 2012 -August 8th 2013

DWI 11
Driving while impaired by Drugs 4 *DRUGS
Possession of Marijuana 5 *DRUGS
Assault 1
Menacing 1
Bench Warrant (failure to appear petit larceny) 1
Animal Cruelty 1
Harassment 14
Welfare Fraud 1
Unlawful Dealing With A Child 2
Endangering The Welfare Of A Child 1
Grand Larceny 3
Felony Criminal Mischief 1
Criminal Mischief 5
Forgery 3
Criminal Possession Of Stolen Property 4
Petit Larceny 11
Contempt of court 2
Violation Of Drug Court Order 1 - Original Violation Felony DWI
Failure to Pay Fine 1
Failure to Appear 1
Falsifying Business records 1
Criminal Possession w/intent to sell 1 *DRUGS
Criminal Possession of controlled subs 5 *DRUGS
Criminal Sale of a Controlled Substance 2 *DRUGS
Possession of Hypodermic Needle 2 *DRUGS
Criminal Impersonation 1
False reporting of emergency incident 1
Criminal Nuisance 3
Resisting Arrest 1
Criminal Trespass 13
Disorderly Conduct 6
Unlawful Imprisonment 1
Reckless Endangerment 1
Failure To Pay Restitution 1
Bail Jumping 1

Thank You to whoever sent that to Mark, looks like 20% or so. It was discussed by Ed above that many of the other offenses may have been caused by drug use, but that was not part of the bet. I concede.

Sorry I didn't get back to you on your question about what to do with scofflaws Mark. I got busy last night. It's not something I think that can be answered in a few paragraphs here. It's a pretty complicated issue and I have to rely on the writings, findings and opinions of people a lot smarter and more informed than me.

Basically to me, in my very humble opinion, if you believe in an authoritative punitive, punishment based system of justice, infractions of the rules will have to be dealt with by more severe punishment. This is where the term "Government is Violence" comes from, break the rules, get threatened - keep on breaking them ultimately it becomes violent.
Now, I'm not an anarchist, I think we have to have some rules to help people protect their property and themselves. I believe government's most important role is to protect our inalienable rights. Not everyone is going to respect others' rights. And when drugs are legalized, there will still be an ugly side to it and people will steal to support a habit. That side of life won't be going away. I do however believe we have far, far too many laws, far too much is spent on law enforcement & incarceration. The tail seems to be wagging the dog. How much do you want to spend to supposedly "keep you safe'? And does more money really make it so? A person who commits a crime against another has to held personally responsible for the damage caused by that crime, financially. Sending someone to jail where every aspect of their life is controlled doesn't place a sense of personal responsibility on them, however unpleasant it may be; it just re-enforces a sense of dependency on the system and hopelessness.
We need to elect government representatives at all levels who will not automatically keep funding increased incarceration and aggressive law enforcement activities. Think about it this way, for every space occupied by a non-violent offender, there is no room for a violent one. If there are less cops, they won't have time for petty nonsense. ( and NO, I do not accept pre-emptive arresting of someone who follows a certain pattern prevents a future more serious crime) We need to have all of our government budgets voted on by the taxpayers.

Individual liberty comes along with individual responsibility, we are straying further and further from both all the time.

Dave,

Unlike other Law Enforcement Agencies, The Sherriff is an elected official, while the actual budget may not be voted on the Implementation and the Administration of the Agency and ultimately how tax dollars for Law Enforcement are spent, are determined every time a Sheriff is elected.

I find only one flaw in your argument, and that is the failure to separate LOCAL law enforcement from Federal. The War On Drugs is a FEDERAL mandate, not a local one.

The problem isn't that we have too much LOCAL law enforcement, it is that we have TOO MUCH Federal Law Enforcement.

Can't disagree with that Mark. I should have separated them I agree.

I like sheriff dept's as the main police agency across the state for the specific reason that they are elected. The state and federal police agencies need to cut way way down. Having wrote that, when the sheriff stays in office for 20 plus years and mostly runs unopposed, I guess he gets to do whatever he wants by and large. The county legislature doesn't seem to challenge him much. Maybe I'm wrong there too, but that's the view from the cheap non-VIP seats. Long past time for a shake up there, and I'd love to see a non- career law enforcement person in that position. But that's just me.